Should I tell the new Scoutmaster?

[SMT224]

About 7 months ago our Troop expelled a Scout who engaged in extremely unScoutlike behavior on a camping trip. We fully involved Council and had a very emotional BOR where the Scout had to answer for his behavior and was expelled from the Troop. Council was at the BOR and left saying they would have a meeting to consider removing him from Boy Scouts for life.

 

This was a very difficult time for the Troop as this family had been very involved with the Troop for the past 10 years, both parents were adult leaders, and two of his brothers had made Eagle in the Troop.

 

This particular Scout had always been a challenge and had behavioral issue which we did the best to accommodate, and on retrospect, overlooked a too many times. His mother had always been keenly interested in seeing all her boy be Eagle. I was shocked when I called and told her what her son had done, her only question was, "Does this mean he can't get Eagle?"

 

Anyway, after the BOR when this Scout was expelled, the family stalked out in tears and anger and we had not heard from them at all... until last night. The mom called and said her son had been seeing a therapist, and Council had decided he could join another Troop. She wants us to send all his Troopmaster records to the new Troop.

 

I'm totally shocked. This kid was a real Eddie Haskel (Leave it to Beaver) who could behave exactly like adults expected him to when he was around adults, but then become the exact opposite when out of sight and earshot of adults. Watching this kind of behavior over the four years he was in the Troop makes me think he completely hood-wink the therapist (but I realize I could be wrong on this and he may have become a complete new person). Add to this a mom who is absolutely driven to see him make Eagle. Oh, and add to this that the Troop he is apparently joining has a reputation of being an Eagle Mill.

 

The idea of this kid making Eagle after what he did makes me sick. He really is the kind of person who could do what is being discussed in another thread... "Our current Negative news-worthy scout." Combine this with a mom will stop at nothing to seen him make Eagle, and that's one way you could get an Eagle that may behave extremely anti-socially.

 

Anyway, should I contact the Scoutmaster in the new Troop and let him know that this boy was expelled from our Troop and why he was expelled? Is it any of my business at this point? Could such an intervention be seen as libelous - especially if the Troop decides not to accept him based information I provided?

 

[packsaddle]

An ethical dilemma...do you owe the new SM the benefit of your observations...or do you owe everyone NOT to prejudice the new leadership with respect to this boy? You seem to know things that you are unwilling to reveal in these anonymous threads, to anonymous persons. Therefore I think you are better prepared to decide if these things are important enough to communicate to the boy's new leaders. My suggestion, IF you DO decide to communicate your misgivings, is to make sure you only communicate things for which you have personal direct experience. And to communicate them in a way that is not provocative but rather an objective account of what you have personally experienced. And if, in retrospect, you have thought of solutions that could have been tried, those would be helpful as well.

But the Eddie Haskell analogy was prejudicial here and I suspect it will be anywhere else. Before you create an unintended but self-fulfilling situation, I would strongly consider letting the new leadership form their own prejudices, based on their own direct experience, without the influence of yours. Who knows, maybe a second chance IS what is needed for this boy.

[moosetracker]

Good question SMT224 - I guess I would say since your troop did all you could, and informed Council, and Council did not choose to expel him totally, the bad decision is out of your hands, and you should not personalize it or make it your responsibility.

 

I guess I in the past did something similar, that I am not proud of now. Troop we were in was really run poorly by the SM. He would put boys and scout leaders all in one large tent, use scout funds to purchase what he wanted (things for the troop, but while we raised funds for seprate tents, he would spend it for fancy stoves and what-not, so we could never get the money for the tents.) Scouting events included his family & friends not tied to scouting, and he put the boys in cars that were of friends that had no association with the troop..

 

The troop was going no where also. The boys had title positions, but the SM did it all including the cooking on campouts. Our son took a Den Chief position so his was the only position doing anything. One meeting of about 5 boys the SM, concentrated on a MB for two, while the other 3 had to sit and listen.. two put their head on the table & fell asleep, it was so boring.

 

Troop consisted of SM, and me as CC, Husband and friend as commitee. CO & COR were hands-off.. After spending 6 months of being the screaming B*t*h and being up half the night pacing over things being done.. We finally pulled my son out, our friends followed, leaving the troop with only the SM and no other Adult Leadership, and I believe 2 - 3 boys (as all other boys had slowly left).. (The only person I could have fired him and replaced him with was my husband, which would have looked like favoritism)

 

I called the COR and had breakfast with him explaining the situation. I talked to the DE and explained the situation..

 

Later I heard they were still continuing to try to make the troop work.. Don't know how I found out who was thinking to be CC, I am not sure if she contacted me to ask for my opinion, or if I contacted her and gave it freely.. But, I warned her not to take the poistion and why.. Later I heard the troop collapsed.

 

To this day I regret my saying anything.. I should have left it in the hands of the DE and the COR. And if they were not going to pull the plug after all I said, I should not have continued to stick my nose in and insure the troop folded.. I really think that in that situation, I, reacted from raw emotion, and the sense that my viewpoint was the only valid viewpoint.. Yet in retrospect, I was probably not seeing the whole picture..

 

You put out the proper warnings, you did what you could to make sure the boy paid for whatever crime he committed.. But, somewhere along the chain of command, someone else saw some other viewpoint and for right or wrong made a decision you would not have made. Your hands are clean.. You should have a clean conscious..

 

If you do as I did your conscious may not feel as clean, given a year or two for your emotions to settle..

 

Sort of like if you want a person who did you or your family wrong put in prision, and the jury returns a not-guilty verdict, or a very short sentence.. You argued your case, you have to accept what the jury decides. It is wrong to take out a gun after the verdict and extract your own punishment.

[SMT224]

Yep Pack, your right, I am prejudicial! Hence my dilemma.

 

I got burned in part by letting a kid get away with increasingly worse behavior in the name of accommodation and hoping that if we gave him a break and a "stern talking to", his behavior would change. It did not. It got worse until he did something that crossed the line and required the significant action of expelling a Scout from the Troop.

 

I also got burned as it happened on my watch - something I wouldn't wish on any SM.

 

But it may be (my real hope) that he really has learned his lesson and has straightened up and will henceforth fly right.

[RememberSchiff]

We have to be responsible adults and teach the boys the same. No end-arounds, you can start over but...but, your past record goes along with you in school and the community.

 

In passing his Troopmaster records, I would also pass along a summary of that BOR, his expulsion from the troop and Council's promised actions. Your CO may also be interested in contacting the new CO. Forewarned is forearmed.

 

Council should have explained, in writing, to your troop their decision change as I would be shocked to see this boy again in a scout uniform at another scout activity. What message would that tell my scouts? Whatever you do, you can beat the system? And then if he gets Eagle on top of it? Where's the discipline? Does anything go now? I am hard pressed to recall a tough decision where Council did not eventually cave to parental pressure.

 

I would also send a formal letter to Council and your district Advancement (Eagle Board) expressing your concerns regarding his return to scouting and express path to Eagle. If there is a EBOR, you should have input.

 

Sorry to hear that you are in this situation. They say SM's are the gatekeepers in Scouting, but it probably more correct to say they are the only gatekeepers in Scouting.

 

My $0.02

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[Stosh]

The boy has his handbook of official advancement. There is no need to provide the new troop any information, bias, opinions or whatever. It is no longer your problem, don't make it a new one.

 

Troopmaster data is the property of the troop. If the mother wants them sent to the new troop, they are not hers to send. If the boy has lost his handbook/record, he can always get a report of his advancement from the Council.

 

I would simply politely decline the request in that those records are the property of the troop. Remember, No is a valid answer to any question.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Buffalo Skipper]

There is a scout who was removed from our troop a year and a half ago. Hardly a day goes by that I do not question if it was what was best for him.

 

We had another scout leave our troop for another a year ago. He was our SPL, but he did have some behavioral issues on which we were trying to work with him. Ultimately, he left over a dispute between his mother and a committee member, but his bahavior issues were a concern for us. He ended up joining Venturing Crew, but it folded before it got off the ground when the Advisor was unexpected transferred out of town. So, he joined another troop, and the SM came to me about him. I work very hard to have a friendly relationship with every scoutmaster in our area, and as it turns out, this SM and I were aquainted in high school, and his mother was my German teacher for 3 years. Though we were not close, our shared adult scouting experiences have made us fast friends. I answered all the questions he had about his new scout, but offered nothing more. Clearly, he was keeping a eye on him (in a good way). It is good to know that this scout is in a good scouting environment. I hope he does well, and I do occasionally ask how he is.

 

Do you have a relationship with your former scout's new SM? Maybe you could have a conversation with him the next time you bump into him. Just a friendly chat. See if he has any specific questions you can answer. Make the conversation positive, even if the material may not be.

 

Not knowing the specifics of this situation, I am somewhat stabbing in the dark at offering advice. Only you can make the decision of how to proceed. A good conscience can speak to you long after an event has passed, guiding you toward scouting's true north. I hope this was helpful. Good luck.

[Beavah]

Yah, in da threads on education lots of people talk about bad teachers and how hard they are to fire, eh? So in some states yeh get the Dance of the Lemons, where teachers who get pushed out of one district go to another, and no one is willing to tell the new district about da problems. So another set of kids gets the shaft.

 

Follow the Golden Rule, SMT224. Would you as SM want to know about the lad's history if he were transferring into your troop? Would yeh feel it's important information to have to keep your kids safe or your program on track? Or to do right by the boy, by havin' the proper supervision and support in place?

 

If not, then let it be.

 

If so, then how can yeh possibly refrain from sharin' that information with a fellow Scoutmaster?

 

Hopefully, all he'll say is that yep, they know about it, the parents gave them permission to talk to the counselor, and they feel comfortable proceeding. But if not, then I reckon if something then happened in the other troop that could have been prevented..... well, sure as shootin' you'd feel awful about it, and rightly so. In fact, honor may demand yeh turn in your badge of office for failure to live up to the Oath and Law.

 

In Scouting, we don't do the Dance of the Lemons, eh? We work with each other to help and support the program and the safety and growth of all the boys.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I suppose I'm in the minority here. I believe we have an obligation to our fellow Scouters to share what we know. Perhaps the boy deserves a second chance. But the other troop deserves full disclosure.

 

Is the Scout's Troopmaster records complete? Meaning, does it include an objective report of the circumstances of the Scout being expelled from the troop.

 

I would simply honor the mother's request.

[SR540Beaver]

SMT224,

 

It depends. On one hand, I'd say that he is out of your troop and none of your business where he goes or what he does. On the other hand, it depends on what he did that got him expelled. If he did something that was harmful to another as opposed to property, then possibly yes. If he pulled a knife on another scout, sexually touched another scout, beat up another scout, etc., then I think a warning to a new SM might be warrented. I understand you not wanting to go into details here and respect that. But the need to inform a new SM of this boy's behavior kind of rests on what the transgression was for me.

 

We had a kid in our troop who was suspended for a period of time. He was always a "problem" kid whose parents always felt he was misunderstood and thus enabled his actions. The straw that broke the camel's back was when he had a knife taken away at summer camp for misuse. He trotted down to the trading post and bought another one. It was taken away from him too. He went and bought another one. It got to the point that adult leadership had to go to the trading post and tell them not to sell him anymore knives. He must have had knives stashed everywhere. He ending up slicing up two of the camp owned tents. His enabling father was the acting summer camp SM for our troop. Our SM always leads the troop's high adventure trip and we use an ASM as SM for summer camp. He packed his sin up and took him home. A BOR was held. There were people who wanted him kicked out. There were others who were willing to suspend him while he got counseling and would let him back in when he made restitution and apologized to the troop for his actions. The latter was decided. Two weeks after the "judgement", the dad proclaimed that his son had gotten the counseling, was all better now and ready to come back. Not so fast! I think we didn't allow him back for 6 months. The boy Eagled this last year right before aging out. Eagle was really more of a desire of his dad than the boy. Was he Eagle "material". Not in my estimation, but he technically fulfilled the requirements.

 

Only you know the details of what this boy who was in your troop did and only you can determine if it was serious enough to warn another SM.

[shortridge]

In Scouting, we don't do the Dance of the Lemons, eh?

 

Except in the professional ranks, on occasion.

[Oak Tree]

Once again, I find myself in agreement with TwoCubDad. I love the clever part of the solution.

 

There is a "remarks" section on each Scout in TroopMaster. You can enter up to 400 characters there. You don't have to go into great detail - but at least provide enough information that the other troop knows they could ask more information. "BoR was held on XX/XX/XX. Scout was expelled from troop. Council was present and informed us they would consider revoking Scout's membership in BSA." If that's not enough to get them to ask questions, then they don't want to know.

 

It's not libel if it's true.

[SeattlePioneer]

Interesting issue.

 

 

I won't claim I have the "right" answer. I'm basically thinking through the issue here.

 

 

There's a lot to be said for deferring to the council. They have the responsibility for the decisions they make, and presumably the expertise and experience to make good decisions.

 

Also, once the boy is gone from the troop, he is no longer the responsibility of the troop. The troop doesn't have the responsibility to provide a character reference for the boy, and I wouldn't attempt to do so.

 

My inclination might be to delete or dispose of the boy's records. But destroying records might be seen as hiding something should a legal issue arise in the future. That being the case, an alternative might be to seal the records and leave them in the possession of the Chartered Organization or some other responsible person with the presumption that they would be held in case some official purpose needed to be served. That means letting them sit in a file where no one is going to have access to them.

 

The parent's request for troop records could be politely turned aside, saying that the records have been sealed and are not available absent a legal order to produce them. Referring parents to the Council records and the boys's Scout handbook would be doing your best.

 

I don't think I would go out of my way to contact the new troop.

 

That leaves what to do if contacted by the new Scoutmaster. My inclination would be to tell the Scoutmaster what I might say if I were involved in a libel trial over the boy's reputation.

 

I think you could truthfully say that the boy was a member of your troop during such and such period of time, but he was expelled because of a serious violation of troop or Boy Scout rules. No, you would not accept him as a member were he to apply for reinstatement.

 

And I'd say nothing else.

 

 

 

[SMT224]

Thanks for your responses... I appreciate the perspectives.

 

I like the ideas put forth by twocubdad & Oak Tree... a comment in Troopmaster may be the best way to transmit the facts (who, what, when).

 

[Lisabob]

I like Oak Tree's suggestion as well.

 

It honors the mother's request and doesn't put road blocks in the boy's path, while providing all the info a person could need, on the other end. Hopefully, the new troop will ask the boy, his parent, and possibly council, to provide them with further detail. They may still accept the boy into their troop, but keep a much closer eye on him. And regardless, you will have a clean conscience.