Guide to Safe Scouting- Not Official?

[SeattlePioneer]

Well, now I'm confused.

 

 

 

Who does this ambiguity benefit?

[Beavah]

It does contain policies - not all of them, but some of them. It is an official BSA document. Why do both of you say otherwise?

 

Yah, I'm not sure I did say otherwise, eh?

 

It is a BSA program document. Just like da program helps, da Patrol Leader's Handbook, merit badge pamphlets, etc. The G2SS is a program document designed to help folks think about safety, the way those others help folks think about meeting plans or how to be a good patrol leader or what knots are good to know for climbing.

 

Yah, it does contain a few things that are excerpts of policies. So do quite a few BSA program materials. It contains some that are excerpts of NCS policies for camps but which do not apply as policies to units or unit scouters. And it contains a lot of other stuff that's just helpful (or not) basics for folks considerin' that type of outing.

 

But it's not a policy document. It never has been. It's not written as a policy document. It's not adopted by the national executive board as official policy for the BSA, and, since G2SS is unit focused, the BSA generally can't write policy for units since it doesn't own or operate 'em (Scoutreach excepted).

 

So, by all means read and be familiar with G2SS, just like yeh should read and be familiar with the SM Handbook and all the other documents. They're there to help yeh. But da real requirement is that as an adult leading youth in the field, you be familiar and experienced with the activity and the youth, and exercise good judgment based on that experience.

 

My personal experience on this issue is da same as others' and the BSA's, eh? Proper tool for the job. Fixed-blade "sheath" knives are totally appropriate for campin', depending on the task, and the lads should be taught to carry and use 'em. Overly large knives of that type (like "Rambo" knives) aren't usually an appropriate tool for most campouts, so leave 'em behind. Though there are times when I've been out hikin' in some areas that a machete would have been welcome .

 

Beavah

 

[SSScout]

"One of the least common things nowadays is common sense".

 

"Aye, thems more like guidelines, actually..."

 

Basically, there are some things a Scout should do his/her best to always do, some things a Scout should absolutely NEVER do, some things a Scout should AVOID doing, except if he/she needs to do it, and some things that a Scout should ask a wiser Scout his opinion of before deciding on doing.

Have I got that right?

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Yes. Exactly.

[shortridge]

Beavah,

 

My definition of a "policy document" is "a document that contains policies." What's yours, exactly?

 

Again, no one has claimed that the G2SS is the final word in safety rules. But to say that it's not a "policy document," just because it's not written like a piece of legalistic mumbo-jumbo, only gives ammunition to the people here who seem hell-bent on discrediting the entire thing because they don't like what it says about sheath knives or campfires or what-have-you.

[Twocubdad]

So Beavah, when you're representing me because I let a Scout ride in the back of my pickup and he bounced out and cracked his skull open, you're going to argue Pirate Law?

 

"Ahhhhh, it's more of a guideline..."

 

[John-in-KC]

Shortridge,

 

I can't speak for the gentle furry fuzzy critter that tastes like chicken (I used to be an Owl, after all, and Beavers TASTE LIKE CHICKEN ), but to me the policy documents are the various source documents. They are all policy.

 

G2SS is a compendium, a secondary document. For most of us in units, it's probably as far as we need go. Even so, in each case where it declares policy, it's doing so on the authority of some other BSA document.

 

That make sense?

[shortridge]

John -

 

I suppose that makes some sense, but it really seems to be splitting hairs. Especially since we in the trenches often don't have easy access to those rules, regulations and policies.

 

My concern is that saying the G2SS is not a policy document suggests that the entire thing doesn't have to be followed, when that's clearly not true.

[Hawkrod]

I have to agree that it is not a primary document of policies but that does not invalidate the policies that it contains. Just because a policy is listed in the G2SS does not mean it is suggestion that you do it that way. It is still a policy and must be adhered to. There are other things included in the G2SS that are not policy but rather recommendations and you can use them as a guide to try and make choices based on your level of experience. In the end, any policies listed in the G2SS are official BSA policies and are not there for you to decide to do it that way or not. The book is what it says it is, a guide and some things must be done as prescribed and others are left to to the user to interpret. For example, age appropriate activities, let Cubs use power tools and lose a finger or hand and see if BSA provided insurance will cover you. That is a policy and violating the policy leaves you on your own. The G2SS is a primary RESOURCE document but does not supercede other BSA policy. I say it is a primary resource document because it is specifically provided by the BSA to do exactly that for unit leaders and is also why it is required for tour permits/plans. Why would it be required if it was not official? The tour plan specifically notes that "adult leaders have read and are in possession of a current copy of Guide to Safe Scouting" is a requirement of having a tour plan. To argue that it is not official and does not have any policy is mis"guided" (pun intended) and to say it is not a primary document is also wrong. The issue is that it is not a primary policy document, it is a primary program resource so it is an issue of semantics but using semantics to disembowel the document is simply folly and a misunderstanding or lack of comprehension of what the G2SS is supposed to be.

[Beavah]

So Beavah, when you're representing me because I let a Scout ride in the back of my pickup and he bounced out and cracked his skull open, you're going to argue Pirate Law?

 

Yah, TwoCubDad, if da only thing that's keepin' yeh from sittin' a scout on your liftgate and barreling down a dirt road at 50 is the G2SS, then the problem is you, not the book. Yeh undoubtedly would find some other way to kill a kid that the G2SS hasn't thought of yet, like lawn surfing.

 

A policy document is somethin' that is written to be a policy document, eh? All of the elements of the document have been written as policy and proposed to the national executive board as policy and voted on as policy. The Rules & Regulations are the BSA's policy document that we agreed to as members.

 

The G2SS is a program document. Like all program documents it's designed to be helpful and useful to people offerin' program. Think of it like the "official" MB pamphlet, eh? It contains some things (da MB requirements) that are policy-like, other things which are common practice, other things which are advice. Because of da revision cycle, some things in MB pamphlets are out of date (Computers MB is particularly susceptible to this). Is da MBC bound to and limited by the MB pamphlet? Of course not. It's expected that a counselor who is experienced in that field will interpret, supplement, modify and make more rich that material based on his experience, and alter or enhance his approach based on the interests and experience of the boy he's counseling.

 

No different with G2SS. It's a program document. It compiles stuff from a variety of sources on various aspects of safety that provide a cursory overview of those things to help units. A few are policy-like or abbreviated restatements of policy stuff, others are common practice or advice. But it's generic stuff, eh? That's all yeh can get with a nationwide document. It can't take into account local conditions or kids, and it's way too short to actually give yeh full information about any aspect of safety.

 

That's why safety in da BSA depends on a conscientious, mature adult experienced in the field and knowledgeable about da kids and practices to supervise. And that's what we're all expected to do, eh? Just like good MB counselors, good teachers, good coaches, good docs, good lawyers.

 

Beavah

 

[fred johnson]

Beavah.... Wow.... Absolutely common sense is core to being a scout leader. BUT... that common sense applies AFTER complying with what's written in the G2SS. And heck, common sense is to comply with BSA policy guidelines.

 

It makes little difference whether it is the BSA root "policy document" or the non-lawyer, human readable BSA policy translation. It's published by the BSA as our "guide" to those policies. That's why for my units, it's if in doubt, check G2SS. (It's updated pretty much every year, making it as curernt as you can get. Plus, it's free. BSA wants every leader to have one.)

 

 

Here's a real world example from my pack. Our pack leaders are gung-ho outdoors people. Five eagle scouts. Former BSA summer camp aquadics staff. Former BWCA tour guide. Life guards. EMT/paramedic. Really, it's pretty cool.

 

For the last four years, different Webelos leaders have wanted to take their Webelos dens canoeing and/or to the BWCA. These cub leaders are thourghly qualified and they've coordinated trips with neighbors and the neighbor kids. Most, if not all the cubs, have already canoed and/or gone to the BWCA (outside of scouting).

 

I, as committee chair and to stay on their good side, say it's fine as long as it's okay with the G2SS and get a tour permit. I'll probably let them know what G2SS says and that the council has rejected previous tour permits for those activities with Webelos. But I'd help them pursue getting council permission ... which won't occur.

 

My big fear is if you say BSA comes down to common sense and G2SS applies differently to different leaders, different cubs and different areas of the countries, scout leaders might just say: what the heck, let's take 'em anyway. I am not a lawyer, but I can almost guarantee you that those leaders are personally liable for accidents as they well should be. Also, I'd bet their BSA membership will be revoked too. Of course, all that makes little difference after they bury some poor kid. Or more probably bury some poor parent who couldn't hack it.

 

[BadenP]

Two very valid points so far:

 

"Common sense is in short supply with too many scout leaders."

 

From G2SS - "Scouters need to be aware of all state and local laws which always supercedes BSA policies and rules."

 

So in a nutshell the G2SS is invalid when it conflicts with state or local or federal law. The scouter needs to use common sense in all situations and can refer to the G2SS for further guidance as long as the information in it does not conflict with local and state laws. National develops BSA policies but it the local council who interprets and enforces those policies,which unfortunately is not always consistent nationwide.

[SR540Beaver]

Well, as pointed out numerous times in numerous threads, the G2SS is a guide except where it is bold type and then it is BSA policy and rule.

 

From the G2SS:

 

BSA Rules and Policies

 

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Resources/Guidetosafescouting.aspx

 

That would be "rules and policies" as oppossed to "guidelines". Yarrrr!

[Beavah]

For example, age appropriate activities, let Cubs use power tools and lose a finger or hand and see if BSA provided insurance will cover you. That is a policy and violating the policy leaves you on your own.

 

Yah, this is a good example, Hawkrod, because it's exactly wrong. The age-appropriate guidelines are just that : guidelines. They explicitly state that in some areas, kids younger than the stated ages may participate because they have the skills to do so. Ever seen the kids who grew up in a whitewater town? They're routinely paddlin' basic whitewater at cub scout ages.

 

Second, insurance and G2SS are fundamentally unrelated. One does not affect the other. G2SS is an internal program document. Insurance is governed by a contract called a policy. Yeh can follow G2SS and still be legally negligent for lack of common sense, and insurance would cover. Yeh can fail to follow G2SS and be found blameless because yeh followed the common sense norms of your community or da standard practice of experienced people in that area. And yeh can fail to follow G2SS and be found negligent and BSA insurance would still cover. That's what it's there for, eh? Just like your auto insurance will still cover you if yeh don't follow the owner's manual, and even if you break the real law by running a red light. Same with BSA insurance. It still covers if yeh didn't follow da G2SS (owners manual) or even the law. Like the Wilderness MB group that burned down the forest during a fire ban. Fully covered in excess of $7M.

 

SR540, I haven't seen da new release yet, but I believe they were talkin' about doing away with the whole bold face thing because it's so clearly ridiculous. It's a mishmash of everything from the "no driving at night" rule to permissive language (yeh "should" not carry firearms) to the YP excerpts that are better covered elsewhere.

 

So, to recap: yeh should read the books. And then, as unit scouters, yeh are obligated and expected to ensure that each activity is supervised by a mature, conscientious adult who is experienced with da activity and workin' with kids. And yeh should listen to him or her.

 

Da number of times I have seen CoS "trained" adults try to tell experienced climbing guides what to do, or SSD/SA "trained" adults try to tell an experienced lifeguard or boater what to do, or seen folks quote obscure G2SS passages like this one to folks who were experienced in both knives and kids.... that's what's truly negligent, people. Thinkin' that 20 minutes of online training or a half a page out of a document like G2SS means yeh know what you're doing.

 

It's a program document in a kid's program. It ain't the Bible. Our job is to keep kids safe and help 'em grow, not memorize a book.

 

Fact is, sheath knives used properly for da proper job are safer than folding-blade pocket knives.

 

Beavah

[Beavah]

It's published by the BSA as our "guide" to those policies. That's why for my units, it's if in doubt, check G2SS. (It's updated pretty much every year, making it as curernt as you can get,

 

Nah, Fred, it's published as a guide to safe scouting, not as a guide to scouting policies. It's meant to offer advice and guidance on safety issues in a variety of areas. Some of it is from da BSA, some of it is copied from other organizations, some even excerpts OSHA or NFPA language. Yeh don't claim that American Whitewater sets BSA policy, do yeh?

 

Changes are made to da Guide each year, but that doesn't mean all of it is current. There's stuff in there that hasn't been changed in a decade or more and is way out of date.

 

Yeh can't cede your responsibility to the BSA, eh? Even if yeh file a tour plan, YOU are still responsible. Even if yeh follow G2SS to the letter, YOU are still responsible. Not the BSA. It's perfectly possible to follow da G2SS to the letter and be legally negligent, especially if yeh ignored experienced guides and medical providers in the process of blindly followin' the book. Any competent attorney would roast yeh on a spit, and rightly so. And the BSA coverage is very sound, but it does have dollar limits that can be exceeded.

 

The BSA does not own, operate, take responsibility for nor set policy for the units. It just publishes program materials. Ultimately, it's your call, your responsibility, your dollar and most importantly your kids on the line.

 

Beavah