G2SS and Dormatory Accomodations

[shortridge]

"I am told the CM is going to storm the next district R/T (which he has never previously attended) and make it known how wrong we are for violating G2SS, and how his pack is ALWAYS getting screwed over."

 

Two completely separate issues here. Yes, you violated G2SS. Admit that right off the bat in your contacts with the DC and DE, and say you've learned from your mistake and will do things differently next time. His pack is getting the short end of the stick? That will come across as whining, especially from a guy who has never attended a Roundtable nor gotten trained.

 

"My general understanding is that there may be situations where the G2SS is only a GUIDE ..."

 

Your general understanding is partly correct. Some items in the G2SS are only a guide. Not the Youth Protection rules we've been discussing here. They're in boldface, which means they are rules and policies.

 

"... and as long as council standards are met, under the eye of the camp Ranger, we're okay."

 

Council standards do not trump National standards rules - and besides, there are no Council standards on youth protection. And don't rely on a camp ranger to interpret them for you - or assume that his mere presence absolves you from anything. A camp ranger is generally just a property maintenance superintendent. He or she isn't a G2SS, program or "rules" expert.

 

"It is the view of the COR and CC that the CM is entitled to his opinion; but if he takes the issue to R/T, it is his personal opinion, not the opinion of the Pack."

 

Confused. Are you talking about your COR and CC, or his?

 

=======================

 

On an unrelated topic:

 

"... or if they were just fagged out from all the other outdoor events of the day ... "

 

Do yourself a huge favor, and don't use this term again. I know it's a common colloquialism in some circles, but given the popular connotations, there are so many better words that could be used instead.

[BadenP]

shortridge

 

First of all the G2SS are GUIDELINES to Safe Scouting, they are not RULES or REGULATIONS or LAWS from National therefore you can not break or violate guidelines.

These guidelines are given to help plan events in a safe atmosphere and to address issues that may come up, period. Look up the definition of guidelines and maybe you will see that your argument falls apart. In this case the unit involved did all it could do to accomodate all parties, they violated nothing, all the guidelines concerning this issue could not be followed exactly, but no one was put in danger or in an embarassing situation, and the fact a few adults objected should not jeopardize the event for all the others, as they were free to leave.

 

The G2SS is not the Holy Bible of Scouting and scouters who think it is really do not understand its true purpose is or why it was created. It is not a rulebook or a set of regulations that must be followed to the inth degree. I agree with Eamonn on what he would like to do to the G2SS sometimes. This whole incident has been blown way out of proportion, and so has some of the advice given in this thread.

[ScoutNut]

From BSA -

 

"The purpose of the Guide to Safe Scouting is to prepare adult leaders to conduct Scouting activities in a safe and prudent manner. The policies and guidelines have been established because of the real need to protect members from known hazards that have been identified through 90-plus years of experience. Limitations on certain activities should not be viewed as stumbling blocks; rather, policies and guidelines are best described as stepping-stones toward safe and enjoyable adventures."

 

"Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies."

 

 

Notice that BSA specifically separates what are guidelines, from what are rules and policies.

 

As to YP violations in the OP's dormitory type accommodations - If the adult leader wing had the room divided by accordion walls, with male leaders on one side, and female leaders on the other, and if there were signs, locks, or some such, on the restroom facilities that insured that they would not be used by both males and females at the same time, I see no problem there.

 

The problem would come in with the "overflow of parents and the younger youths" sleeping in the great room. This sounds like it was a mixed bag of male, and female, youth and adults. Even though these folks were not registered members of BSA, Youth Protection policies should have been followed for them as well. The division of male youth/male adults/all females, would have been a solution that would have worked within YP policies.

 

I suggest that next time you look into using 2 lodges (one for males, one for females) instead of only one. That would give everyone plenty of room, and privacy.

[Oak Tree]

It's my opinion that the G2SS does not adequately address this situation, especially with regards to Cub Scouts. My interpretation is that because the G2SS is so clearly inadequate in this situation, it's up to the leaders to use their judgment, following a few principles.

 

Camp at an aquarium and everyone's in one big room. Camp on the USS Yorktown, and all the men and boys are in one large room. Camp in cabins, and each den is in one large cabin. It is not a reasonable expectation to have the aquarium provide multiple rooms, nor to divide up a huge space. It's not reasonable to leave an entire room or cabin full of nothing but Cub Scouts.

 

You can throw the G2SS out the window on this one, and it especially gets negative points for acting like it does address this situation. You want private changing areas. Beyond that, is it really a problem to have a large group of people sleeping in one large open space?

 

This same issue can come up with changing rooms, too. If you get to some public aquatics facility and have to change into swimsuits, you generally have to do it in a public locker room, which does not always provide separate changing stalls. You can't demand that the rest of the public leaves, and it seems safer to have your adults there with the kids than to leave them alone with a bunch of strange adults. You can try to plan ahead to avoid the situation, but if it comes up, just use your judgment.

[BadenP]

YPT aside as I think we all agree with those basics of that set of policies, just because something is printed in boldface does not elevate it to being a rule or regulation. For example here's one that comes up a lot, laser tag, the BSA G2SS says no but on what authority can they say no? If a troop, pack, or crew decides as a group to go to laser tag and are NOT wearing any uniforms how is that a violation since there is nothing identifying the group as scouts? The fact that at scout camp the rifle range is always one of the most popular activities, from BB guns, to shotguns, to black powder guns shooting at targets.

 

I know some will jump in with but they are not shooting at each other, true but again laser tag guns do not shoot bullets or buckshot just beams of light and are not real guns by any stretch of the imagination, and these youth are not in uniform. Just because some individual has his knickers in a twist at National gets to decide for the entire scouting community to nix this activity, IMO, lacks any real forethought, credibility, or authority. That is why the G2SS is called a GUIDE. Besides, the hypocrisy is that the BSA allows video games that have more bloody carnage, killing and maiming at scouting camps and events.

 

To bring this back to topic this pack did all it could to insure the G2SS was followed as close as was humanly possible. There were no violations because you can not violate guidelines, just choose to ignore them entirely. That was not the case here and you hardliners are way off base insuiating that any violation took place.

[SR540Beaver]

I would agree that the GUIDE to Safe Scouting are GUIDEelines and not rules or policies except where the G2SS says this:

 

BSA Rules and Policies

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

 

When you see bold type, it is not a guideline. It is a rule.

[shortridge]

"YPT aside as I think we all agree with those basics of that set of policies, just because something is printed in boldface does not elevate it to being a rule or regulation."

 

BadenP,

 

You are wrong. RTM.

 

=========

 

I agree that the G2SS does not address many group sleeping situations. But in this case, the OP clearly states there was a main area and two wings. The Cubs could have slept in the main area, the men in one wing and the women in the other wing. No problem, and fully within the rules. Instead, apparently because some Cubs had snagged one of the wings already, they chose to do some sort of mixed-gender arrangement - which, frankly, I would be a bit uncomfortable with - and mixed Cubs and parents in the big room.

 

Whether you like it or not, the complaining CM will score a point if he takes this issue up the ladder.

[BadenP]

shortridge

 

Not to belabor the point there is a vast difference between a rule and a policy. The complainer will score nothing going up the ladder in this particular situation, no one was put at risk, and no ones privacy was violated, the CC and SE would probably just laugh this one off. Sometimes just because something is in print it still can be open to variable interpretations, look at our tax laws or our Supreme Court decisions.

Sometimes some people become way too anal over trivial things, as in this case.

 

In this case I think you are very wrong in your interpretation.

[qwazse]

momOf2: In deference to our Charter Org., I would not hesitate to tell a couple who hasn't tied the knot to bring separate tents. Or, if they would rather: not put up a tent at all and sleep under the open sky with me. (Oh wait, then I'd be sharing the Almighty's tent with them ... what to do?)

 

I think the OP's problem is that a co-leader judged him/her rather than listened. It's one thing to say, "Hey there's a YP problem here and I'd like to help you fix it before all the cubbies are settled in." It's another to fly off the handle and think that an event organizer is part of the great liberal conspiracy and make a stink to the entire district!

[Beavah]

Yah, seems like da real issue here is just a CM with a "personality", eh? . There's really no issue of youth safety or any of all the rest, so that's kinda moot. I reckon since this fellow has no use for training or for council more generally, that he came with a chip on his shoulder and a short fuse.

 

Yeh usually can't do too much about these fellows, eh? I'd just let your RT commish know so that he or she is prepared to aggressively stick to the RT agenda and not allow off-topic interruptions.

 

For da rest, I'll just say my usual schtick, eh? All of the BSA program materials, includin' the G2SS (which is really just a compilation of stuff from other places), are just program materials in a kids' program. Yeh can't treat 'em like they're laws or regulations. Yeh can't even behave like they're employer policies or work rules. They aren't written that way, with da level of resources and attention to detail that is required of those sorts of legal or professional documents.

 

Yep, beginners who read da BSA program materials tend to take 'em really literally. That's what beginners do, eh? And that's a fine thing, because it helps the beginners keep out of trouble. Those with more experience recognize over time that there are all kinds of situations and circumstances that require judgment rather than literalism, but who still hold to da key principles of da guidelines. That's just da difference that comes with expertise.

 

So Bluejacketscouter has added to his experience, eh? He now knows that when dealin' with folks with personalities, yeh have to do a bit more to roll out da red carpet for 'em the first time. Either that or just not invite 'em.

 

Bluejacket, thanks for all yeh do for the kids. And a special thanks on behalf of da kids for what yeh do to put up with adult "personalities" and to keep da program runnin' in spite of 'em.

 

Beavah

[Basementdweller]

This happens all the time.....

 

I always have a couple of big cabin tents in the trailer.....the men sleep in the tents and the ladies and female sibs would have the other room.

 

or the other solution

 

divide the adult room with a blanket.

 

No big deal.

 

Sounds like a real jerk your dealing with. Funny thing in a year or two he will not be allowed to register unless he is trained.