G2SS and Dormatory Accomodations

[BluejacketScouter]

Had issues with a group tour last weekend. Organized 3 Cub Packs to attend a council event at camp, then stayed over at a group lodge at camp prior to a tour the next day.

 

Some of the parents and one Cubmaster left in an angry scene, saying the lodge did not meet G2SS requirements and we were violating the coed arrangements. The lodge has two sleeping areas connected to a great room. Each sleeping area is a separate wing with their own bathroom facilities. One sleeping area is open (no door). Older boys were put in this room. The other sleeping area is partly closed (accordion dividers). Female and male leaders shared this room appropriately (room vacated and doors closed for privacy when changing, etc). The great room was overflow of parents and the younger youths on cots.

 

There were approximately 30 youths and 25-30 adults. Accountability was never an issue. Lodge capacity was not maxed out.

 

Okay or no? Grey area maybe? Fire away, I want to see all sides. Supposedly a group of angry parents led by Cubmaster are going to storm next district Roundtable. Do we cut them down with logic and reason, or take lumps and issue refunds?

 

[packsaddle]

I'm still not clear about the specific reasoning behind their anger. Please explain.

[T2Eagle]

I don't know that I have a completely clear picture but I think you messed it up. It sounds like there were three separate sleeping areas. But you put adult males and females in one area together, that's not right. Then it sounds like you had adults and youths together in another area and they may not have been all the same gender and weren't separated by at least blankets for privacy, that's also not right.

 

I would have said area 1: all males over 18, area 2: all males under 18, area 3: all females (from your description it sounds like no under 18 females were there). I would have strung blankets or the like between the areas for privacy.

 

G2SS says "male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities" this means separate from each other not just separate from the rest of the group. Also the term "leader" would refer here to all adults -- that includes parents not just registered leaders.

 

I would get an official view from your DE or higher and quickly, and if you were wrong apologize early and often, don't wait for them to come to you, don't wait for roundtable, if you're wrong get out in front of it early.

[Pack212Scouter]

Here is the appropriate section for you....

 

"8.Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility.

9.Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units: Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four youth. A minimum of one of the adults is required to be youth-protection trained. Adults must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as a temporary blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing area separated from the youth area."

 

So in other words, the prefered setup would have been females in one room, male youth in another, and male adults in a third.

 

Alternatively you could have places females in one room, male youth and adults could have utililized the same room, provided some privacy barriers were used.

[moosetracker]

As the others have said, with the break up..

 

But unless you as organizer was strict on who slept where, the 3 rooms would have been arrangable (as others have stated).. Once there, they could have reorganized the plans, made it work and all had a fine time.

 

Bottom line, I don't think it was your fault (unless as stated, you wouldn't let them rearrange..).. You gave them the accomedations, it was up to them to make it work.. And it was a workable arrangement.

 

Also in my unit, part of being prepared is looking at the accomidations ahead of time and making plans.. There have been times, the cabin setup was only a division of two, we then would let the women adult leaders know for this trip, they could not come. They have understood the reasoning.

 

So again up to the units, to foresee an plan.. A little harder with 3 packs.. But in being prepared, for those accomedations we would have either corresponded with the other units, or brought a setup for a room divider if need be..

 

Then again we are a troop with some experience behind us, some Pack Leaders can be totally green, and not able to think for themselves, or think outside the box. (Notice I said SOME, not ALL.. So you who are from packs that can preplan and come up with solutions on the fly.. Don't shoot me..)

[Eamonn]

There are times when I'd like to stick the G2SS where the sun never shines.

Eamonn.

[shortridge]

Sorry to say, but you violated youth protection policies. From the G2SS: "7. Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available." Logic and reason aren't on your side, so don't continue this fight.

 

You could have easily stuck all the boys in the great room, the men in one wing and the women in the other wing. Problem solved. No need to break up older and younger boys - they're all Cubs.

 

If there were more men than could fit in one wing, they could have overflowed into the great room, putting up dividers. That's permitted.

 

If there were more women than could fit in one wing, that poses a problem, because they can't overflow into the great room ("Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations"). In that case, you could ask the camp for some tents and pitch them outside.

 

Were the parents right to be angry and storm out? No. There were solutions that could have been worked out. Should you issue refunds? Sure, as a gesture of goodwill and peace. Do partial refunds (after all, the lodge costs the same amount if there are 10 or 50 people sleeping there, so you did incur some costs), apologize, and chalk it up as a learning experience.

[pchadbo]

OK, this is slightly off the OP but relevant to the discussion. Does this mean that the group of scouts and parents (mixed gender) that went to the local museum and slept on the floor under the tyrannasaurus rex were in violation of G2SS because the adult male & female leaders did not have seperate accompdations?

[momof2cubs]

pchadbo: we run into this one all the time. Our pack does yearly "overnights" at various places. Usually, these are not strictly BSA programs so the sleeping accommodations do not lend themselves to YP and G2SS rules.

 

For instance: our Tigers do a yearly overnight at our local zoo. The Zoo provides what they call "lodges" (and i DO use the term loosely). They are basically one big room. There is no way to hang any sort of curtain and these are Tigers so either the mom or the dad (or both) must come. Everyone sleeps on the floor.

 

We try to keep the adult males on one side, the adult females on another with the boys in between. but that's the best we can do.

 

Interestingly enough, we have one or two families in our pack whose parents are not married. There is NO WAY anyone is gonna tell them they cannot share a tent during Family Camping... is there?

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm curious like packsaddle what da real issue was for the original complainers. Was it that the women were uncomfortable sharing quarters with the men (or vice versa)? Or was it that the leaders were uncomfortable with moms and dads being with their kids in the great room? Or was it just an overly scrupulous reading of da G2SS by a few newly trained but inexperienced leaders?

 

In order to apply G2SS to da practical, real-world situations we all encounter, it's not enough just to quote da wording, eh? There's no way anyone in Irving or anywhere else in the BSA can possible write wording to cover all of the myriad situations that yeh can encounter, and if they tried the G2SS would be over a thousand pages instead of over 100.

 

So it's always necessary to actually understand da guidelines and the reason for 'em so that you can apply them intelligently in each situation. Otherwise we'd be making moms sleep in their cars at -20 degrees for that museum outing, rather than just sleepin' at da other end of the T-Rex.

 

With cubs in particular the issues are a bit different than with the older youth programs, eh? Moms might insist on sleepin' where their kid can see them or vice versa, so holdin' strictly to the "no women in the boys' dorm" rule actually reduces youth protection rather than enhancing it, and reduces people's confidence that we know what we're doin'. Heck, yeh might well have a cub pack with no male leaders; are yeh really goin' to leave da Tiger cubs unattended all night in a strange place?

 

Yah, we want to avoid da appearance of impropriety by having a male and female leader not share the same tent, but does anyone see any appearance of impropriety in havin' 10 moms and dads share a great big floor? Really? Da old phrase "get a grip" comes to mind.

 

Sometimes I think where we fail with G2SS is that we really need to acknowledge in writing that these things require judgment. Otherwise yeh have novices blindly followin' da guidelines into a ditch.

 

Beavah

 

[momof2cubs]

"Yah, we want to avoid da appearance of impropriety by having a male and female leader not share the same tent, but does anyone see any appearance of impropriety in havin' 10 moms and dads share a great big floor? Really? Da old phrase "get a grip" comes to mind"

 

Hey I hear ya, but strictly speaking when we do the overnights, we violate YP and G2SS rules. No one has ever said a word one about this, but honestly I am just holding my breath on this one.

 

And I gotta be a little honest: when it was my turn to do the Zoo thing with my youngest, it made a little uncomfortable. Plus the snoring was something else! I almost (almost!!) suggested that we made this one a moms and tigers only trip (no dads). Of course I didn't, since it's not always possible, feasible or fair.

[Eamonn]

When Beavah states:

"we really need to acknowledge in writing that these things require judgment"

I couldn't agree more!

Surely the aim of the guide is to ensure that we keep the kids in our charge as safe and as from from harm as we can.

When it just comes down to us bashing each over the head with a bunch of words, no matter how well meaning the words might be. We are missing the point.

I'm willing to always put my judgment about the well being of the Scouts in my charge ahead of any rule.

The last thing I ever want is to see any child hurt or harmed in any way.

I'm not saying that the guide is a bad thing. I'm just saying that there are times when common sense must prevail.

Ea.

 

 

[kari_cardi]

There you go, momto2cubs! If we just tell the adults they CANNOT SLEEP, then we can meet G2SS guidelines without any effort whatsoever! Just kidding, but when I am bunking in a room with 70 of my closest scout friends, I assume I won't be sleeping anyway since that is what experience has taught me.

[shortridge]

Beavah -

 

I don't disagree with you on most points, but I think when we can follow the rules easily or with minimum of effort, as the OP's group could have, we have an obligation to do so.

 

Of course, the best way to handle all of this is to plan it out beforehand, ask questions, and explain to the parents before they arrive.

[BluejacketScouter]

Thanks for all the replies and I'll fill in some background.

 

Two packs arrived earlier than the third, and those boys laid claim to their "space" while the adults worked at setting up the great room as a dining hall for all three units and began preparing and laying out dinner.

 

Third Pack, the parents and Cubmaster who left, basically walked in, turned up their noses at the chaos, and hit the parking lot running. I caught the Cubmaster as he was leaving and asked what was going on. He stated that there was no room, and one of the BOYS from the other pack had gleefully told them "THERE ARE NO MORE BUNKS, YOU HAVE TO SLEEP ON THE FLOOR!!" Then it was screw this, screw them, screw you, we paid money to attend, yadda yadda.

 

I calmly explained that no, this was not the case, that the great room would be changed over for sleeping accomodations and everyone would be re-arranged after the meal, but could not pursuade him to stay. Those parents who were still present in the parking lot and nearby to hear the conversation, DID stay and had a great time. I believe 11 of his unit left, 16 stayed.

 

No one was asked to leave; no one was told to leave. No one slept on the floor. None of the parents who left came to the group organizer(s) before taking off, except the CM and he was just as mad as could be.

 

The issue of giving a refund came up two days later. I understand the "goodwill" angle, but am loathe to issue refunds to folks who did not hang around to understand the situation and the re-arrangements. The G2SS threat came up AFTER the CM was informed that refunds would not be issued, and based upon his OBSERVATION of the sleeping arrangements prior to him leaving. We would have made further movements to suit him, but honestly, I don't think that ANYTHING would have been satisfactory.

 

My olive branch to the parents who left is to deduct the money they paid from their Cub Bash fees this summer. This keeps the money in the camp where it has been paid, and where it belongs. Giving a flat refund doesn't truly resolve the situation; it's just 11 bodies who will never set foot into camp again.

 

The reason I posted from the G2SS angle is because I am told the CM is going to storm the next district R/T (which he has never previously attended) and make it known how wrong we are for violating G2SS, and how his pack is ALWAYS getting screwed over.

 

My general understanding is that there may be situations where the G2SS is only a GUIDE, and as long as council standards are met, under the eye of the camp Ranger, we're okay.

 

CM is ex-USAF who has refused leader training because "I have fought for my country and don't need it". This was their Pack's first participation in ANY district or council event, at my urging. Flew his flag upside-down when President Obama was elected. Generally a PITA.

 

COR and CC are aware and understand what occured with the parking lot incident, and in the process of notifying the DC and DE now. There is no UC attached to this Pack. In retrospect, yes, we should have been better prepared to hold everyone from unloading gear and firmed up the sleeping assignments ahead of time. It goes on the "what didn't work" list for next time. This issue aside, we're actually pretty pleased at how everything turned out and we may try it again.

 

I don't have a good feel for the mood of the parents who left - if they were told or encouraged to leave by the CM, or if they were just fagged out from all the other outdoor events of the day, and used this as a trigger to go home and hit the shower. I need to do some more asking around prior to R/T. The parents who did stay, pretty much are calling the ones who left stupid.

 

It is the view of the COR and CC that the CM is entitled to his opinion; but if he takes the issue to R/T, it is his personal opinion, not the opinion of the Pack.

 

I know all of this changes the responses somewhat, which was why I narrowed down to the G2SS side to begin with.