When is too much leadership too much?

[BadenP]

 

Stosh, ol man, I am truly sorry to hear the news of losing your troop. It sounds like certain factions had been planning this coup for a while now. What a rotten way to treat you after all your service to the boys. Time for you to move on and find another troop or crew that needs your help. Don't waste your time with anger or getting revenge, just kick the dust off your feet and be the bigger man, or you could always get yourself appointed District Advancement Chair and not pass any Eagles from that troop,lol, either way there are still more scouting adventures waiting for you out there.

 

Good Luck!

[Twocubdad]

What a chicken s*** way to treat someone. I wish I knew the CC, UC and DE. I'd like to tell them so.

 

Dispicable.

[Lisabob]

That's awful. People who are too spineless to meet and discuss concerns face to face with the person in question and who would rather hide their actions, have no place in a youth program that is all about integrity.

 

Stosh I'm sorry to hear it worked out like this. And I agree with John - you ought to be talking with the SE, because a DE who meddles in troop affairs like this is bound to cause all sorts of grief.

 

 

[Eagle007]

Stosh, I must echo what others have said. I'm sorry for your loss and in all actuality the loss of the troop. I wish you could be in our troop and bring your wealth of knowledge to our scouts and scouters. Another troop close by is looking for a leader just like you. Stay strong and stay in scouting.

[Stosh]

John-in-KC: Communication was the core of the problem. The CC has been in place since late last fall and was hand-picked by the former CC as one who would carry the mantle of boy-led, patrol-method. However, once a couple of helicopter parents gang up on a newbie CC, SE and UC, it's a pretty much done deal. The boy-led, patrol-method was specifically what the helicopter parents were against. They wanted an adult-led program for their kids and that's pretty hard to compete with a boy-led approach.

 

It'll be interesting the next few weeks to observe (from afar) the fall-out from this. I'm thinking this may be far from over. However, returning would be pretty much impossible in that we'll lose a few of the boys and the bad taste in the mouths of the disgruntled parents would keep the reputation of the troop at a continual low. The next step for these parents would be to pick up the new Webelos boys, tell their parents how terrible the troop is and start another competitive troop next door. People like this just don't give up.

 

As far as revenge is concerned. Not going to happen. In order for me to do that, I'd have to get down on their level and that's really not where I ever want to be.

 

As I said before, I don't live in the district where this former troop is, so if I continue in scouting getting a troop closer to home would be a good thing. I know that by running a boy-led, patrol-method troop is the exception and not the rule in our council, so I'm thinking the Council isn't going to be in any hurry to "wreck" another troop with such radical ideas.

 

I did put in a call to the other district's DE to have a cup of coffee with him. Haven't heard back from him yet.

 

Hmmm, let figure this out... Count the weekends.... 1) Spring Camporee, 2-3) Summer camp, 4) Fall Camporee, 5) Whitewater canoe trip, 6) Late summer backpack trip, 7) Winter camp, 8) Winter Survival. Then there's the three weeks of vacation I never get to take, last year was summer camp and jambo, this year, plenty of days to turn each one of those 8 weekends into 3-4 day weekends. Oh, yes indeedy, I hear my kayak in the garage calling my name.... Add to that my regular personal trips (4-5) , and then there's Civil War reenacting. The 150th Anniversary of the Civil War starts this year and I'm already signed up for First Bull Run in July..... There's 8 other events on the calendar this year with that. 20+ weekends of camping and no responsibility. I might be able to work up enough selfishness to get used to that in short order.

 

What the helicopter parents never bothered to realize is that although I put my heart and soul into their boy's leadership development, in the long run, I didn't have to....

 

I'm still a registered UC so I'll have plenty of things to do, but as you know, I would rather be hands-on with the boys in the trenches.... Over the past 40 years, I have started 44 different Explorer/Venturing post/crew, I took this troop on just before it was about to collapse and brought it back up to reasonable size, I can start all over from scratch if I have to.

 

I'm still 100% sold on boy-led, patrol-method as the only way to go, even if one runs the risk that at any time other adults can step in and take it all away. It was a great ride, even if it didn't last very long. Now at least I know it can work!

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[JMHawkins]

Stosh, good luck. Yes, your milage certainly does vary.

 

I'm curious what the other parents will think about this.

 

I'm really sad to hear this happened. If it's any consolation, it gives me extra motivation to make communciation with new parents a huge priority to try and head this sort of thing off early.

[Alabama Scouter]

What a raw deal.

 

This may well doom that entire troop to failure, and in a short time at that. It is the leaders that put the wear and tear on their trucks that deliver the program (no pun intended).

 

The (whining) parents of 1st year scouts should not hardly have a seat at the (committee) table until they have proven they have bought into the program as it's being delivered. They do have a choice of which troop they join, after all. Or start their own, instead of a spineless coup like this.

 

Sad. They probably don't know that they've killed the unit, either.

 

I wonder, too, how many of these parents have signed up for IOLS, Woodbadge, Committee Challenge, and the rest of it. Or is that "someone else's job?"

 

Sad, sad, situation. But you'll land on your feet.

[Eagledad]

Man I hate this kind of stuff.

 

What did these parents not see or not know about the troop when they joined?

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

Stosh,

 

As I've said, CC and SM have to have each others back.

 

When I became a CC, I was selected in part because of Scouting experience. I also knew Job 1 was to support the SM.

 

Oh well. Do talk to the SE. That DE has potential to damage his entire District. You don't serve your volunteers by caving to parents.

[Stosh]

One of the risks one runs with empowering the boys in a boy-led program is that the skills and confidence they develop can be used for positive growth and development or for negative tyranny and destruction. That can be a dangerous thing to do with young boys who can have a vision of the world that revolves solely around them. Not all boys are the same and one never can tell which ones are which at times. It's like training bears at the circus. A very dear friend of mine who spent her whole life in the circus said that training cats was a lot easier than training bears. Cats are expressive and when mad the trainer can tell right away. Bears on the other hand have no expression at all and can be very friendly and cooperative one moment and kill you the next without any forewarning.

 

As part of their leadership development it was couched carefully with the Scout Law and Oath, neither of which seems to have taken root for a few of the boys. Boys know that from an early age on if they wish to get their way on something, a little tantrum along the way usually motivates parents to make the problem their son is facing to go away. Of course, none of the parents feel the need to adhere to the Scout Law or Oath, so they become easy pawns for their boys.

 

Speed Leas has a very good guide for conflict that I have used all my life.

 

1) There's a problem. It can be identified and solved.

2) Something's wrong. We don't know what to fix, move to level 1, solve.

3) Something's wrong and someone's to blame. Adds to the conflict and keeps everyone from dealing with the real problem.

4) Gamesmanship. There are some that stir the waters just because it's fun. Don't want anyone to leave the game because then the fun's over.

5) Divorce. Someone has to go, game's over.

6) Jihad. I'll take you out even if it means destroying me in the process.

 

The surprising part of this whole situation is how it came out of nowhere at level 5/6. Normally one gets wind of things long before it has escalated that far.

 

Developing leadership in the realm of the unknown of immature youth is basically like wiring a house with the electricity turned on.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

I guess we have a practical answer to the question posed as the title to this thread....

[BadenP]

Stosh

I really hear what you are saying and feeling and agree 100%. Listen since I decided to step down as crew Advisor and become the crew COR/CC I have had mixed feelings as well.

Then I look at how I helped start a crew of 10 teens and watched it turn into a group of 60 excited,active Venturers. The new Advisor and Assoc. Advisors were part of that original group eight years ago,and I have watched them mature and grow into wonderfully caring and knowledgable leaders. They and the teens are always coercing me into going on trips and other activities with them, but now I can pick and choose which ones. I was asked to be the lead adult when the crew goes to the Seabase this summer which I am really looking forward to.

 

Stosh, I just want to say to you that they can take your position away from you but they can never take away the influence you had on the boys and that they had on you. Hold on to those experiences, take comfort in them, and use them as a catalyst to continue in scouting in whatever new experience awaits you.

 

[acco40]

I was in a simular situation a couple of years ago. I was Scoutmaster for about seven years. Toward the end, I heard parental complaints, some direct, some indirectly that said my expectations for the boys were too high. That usually came along when I expected such things as the SPL & PLC to plan out the troop meetings, the PLC to attend annual planning and come prepared with suggestions and ideas, etc. On the other hand, if I made decisions such as not playing laser tag as a troop meeting the parents would pull out their trump card that I was not letting the boys lead. So, I thought I must be doing something right when 1/3 thought I had to high expectations from the boys and the 1/3 thought I didn't let them lead enough!

 

For the last two years, I was working with the CC to find my replacement. The best candidates didn't want the responsibility and those that did, I didn't feel were the right folks for the job. In the end, I stepped down on my own. Now, the troop has a single Scoutmaster in name only but really the job revolves around a few fathers and a few mothers "run the show" - their goals is to get Johnny his Eagle rank as painlessly as possible. So the adults plan outings, cook for the troop, etc.

[UCEagle72]

"So the adults plan outings, cook for the troop, etc"

 

And another piece of Scouting dies ...

[qwazse]

Hey Stosh,

 

The real problem is someone realised you're they outsider and felt bothered by it.

 

Now that you have all that time ... let some of your (ex-?) boys know my crew's 5 short on sailors for a Bahama's sailing adventure this summer. If I'm bringing adults, I want the kind who know they're good for nothing and best used that way. If I'm bringing youth, they need to be the kind that know the keel won't pull free from the crab traps until they dive under themselves and cut the lines!

 

Seriously PM me if you're interested.