When is too much leadership too much?

[Stosh]

I had an interesting phone call from my DE last night just before Roundtable. It would seem that the parents of the troop met with the DE, the UC and Committee and aired complaints that their boys were expected to do too much leadership in the troop.

 

They did not think that the boys should be responsible for everything.

 

One boy volunteered to do the popcorn sales this past year and the troop raised sold more popcorn than at any time in the past. For the past three years a boy has taken on Summer Camp, selected the camp, signed up MB's, collected fees, got equipment ordered and the boys unanimously vote every year to return to that camp. We have had about 90% turn out for camp each of those three years.

 

Right now each boy has taken on a POR and we've been training heavily on how to do it. We have been organizing such that each week we have flags, inspections, a business meeting, training and game closing with flags. This is all done by the boys.

 

Our winter camp with the Webelos has been entirely set up by the boys, and last night a reminder went out to the boys to be sure to have their money at the meeting Monday so that the Grubmaster can purchase food on Thursday and leave on Friday.

 

The Treasurer has been collecting weekly dues and keeping records on it and the boys are planning a swimming outing where the new Webelos boys can learn how to take the BSA swim test and have pizza afterward. Currently up-to-date dues members will not have to pay for the pizza or swimming.

 

And yet the parents are complaining that too much is expected of the boys. Maybe boy-led, patrol-method is not an appropriate approach to the BSA program.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

What does the PLC think?

 

What does the Committee Chair and/or COR think?

 

Personally I think your troop is on the right path as that was how my troop was run as a youth.

 

Now to answer your question "when is too much leadership too much," I would say when the responsibility becomes all consuming and the scouts, and adults for that matter, start neglecting everything else: school, work, etc.

 

My den chief is one of "super scouts" who is so involved, that scouting is his life. He's a PL in the troop, a DC in my pack, chapter officer, and on the lodge dance team. He's so involved, and on the fast track to Eagle (13 and Star only because swimming requirements slowed him down), that his mom asked me to talk to him about slowing down so that he can enjoy scouting. But that's another story

 

His grades started to suffer b/c he didn't do some school work b/c of his involvement in Scouting. I had to have a discussion with him that grades are his #1 priority, and I didn't want him coming to den meetings until he pulled his grades up to passing. Had to tell him that the Cubs look up to him, and that if they see him doing poorly in school, they think they will be able to do poorly too. He busted butt and got his grades up.

 

I do admit there is another motive too; don't want him in summer school as I need him as Day camp this summer

 

But I have seen adults fall into the predicament. If it wasn't for my wife, I would easily fall into it. Had some

good friends who got too involved, and had to drop Scouting completely. Luckily they are slowly getting back involved, and are not overcommitting.

 

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Alabama Scouter]

It sounds like the parents want to be in scouting!

Too much leadership? Is that possible? Some of the jobs you list are most often committee member jobs (popcorn, summer camp enrollment). How were these jobs ceded to the scouts? They didn't always do these jobs, at some point they were given to the scouts. If it is working, let it go. Sounds like helicopter parents to me.

[BrentAllen]

Stosh,

We had a quarterly parent meeting back in January, where some complaints were raised - all by parents of 6th grade boys. The complaints were that these parents wanted more adult involvement. They wanted an ASM working with each PL to keep things organized and running smoothly. The parents of older Scouts spoke up and said, "If you have an adult micro-managing my son, he is just going to get mad and quit." I thought about this for a long time, and have come to the conclusion if the parents of the new Scouts are complaining they want more adult involvement, it may actually be a compliment. I would see if you can dig down on the complaints, not to find out specifically who made them, but the demographics of those who made them. Are they just from younger Scouts, or from across the spectrum?

 

As for us, to appease some and improve our program, we have assigned an ASM to each PL to mentor from afar, meaning the ASM will not get involved in patrol meetings directly, but may observe from across the room, and can follow up with the PL afterwards to review. The ASM can and should contact the PL at least once during the week to see how things are going with his patrol, to see if he is making plans for upcoming meetings, what he is doing to help his patrol mates advance. Ask lots of open-ended questions. Mentor and coach.

[Eagledad]

Wow, Leadership or safety? I've watched you program since you have been on the forum and your scouts don't seem to be different from ours with leadership.

 

And with all do respect to the time you give to our program, this might be a time to reflect on the adult side of the program. I have never seen the DE get involved with parents unless the unit adult leadership is ignoring their concerns. Surely someone saw this coming.

 

Parents have a responsibility to protect their kids from unreasonable risk. In this day and age, parents are less trusting of adults who say, trust me, you kid is safe with me.. They want to know that their kid is safe. Also, parents who are more in the dark generally are a reflection of what their kids are telling them at home. What do they really know?

 

I found through humbling lessons that the parents have to be educated about the program we are presenting for them. If they are to trust us to keep their kids safe and in a program that they dont really understand philosophically, the burden is on us to teach them our philosophy of the program.

 

You are pretty open Stosh that you spend 100% of your time. I don't understand how 100% of time with boys isn't adult run, but who knows what that really means. I believe the SM should spend at least 50% of their time with the adults constantly teaching, guiding, role modeling, and educating them on our program philosophy. Especially a philosophy that is radically different from what the parents expect like our boy run philosophy. And it has to be the SM, not the CC, ASM, advancement committee member or chaplains aid that teaches the philosophy because after all, the SM IS the Troop leader, No matter what anyone else says.

 

And I think the SM needs to show actual examples of how their program is working. Not theories or conspiracy theories of what might happen. The SM needs to actually show the parents what is going on, how it works and why. And they need to do it all the time. Not once a year, but over and over. If the parents like what they hear and see from the SM, then they will not only allow their sons to stay in the program, they will push them to stay in the program.

 

If the SM cant do all that, the parents get suspicious and scared. They dont like being in the dark. Our troop was considered the most radical boy run Troop in the council and that kind of program required constant communication with the Troop leaders as well as the parents. I constantly gave handouts of the Aims, Methods and troop vision to all parents and had a parents meeting twice a year to explain the boy run program as well as answer any questions. We required the parents of new scouts attend a four week training where they were exposed to everything in the program. It was the one time the PLC had more than one or two adults in their meetings. I also gave all this same information to visiting Webelos parents. Our program was radical compared to most troops, but it also grew from 14 to 80 scouts in five years. We had the largest single group of scouts 14 and older than any other unit in the council. Not that we wanted a big troop, we didnt. Boy run is very difficult on a large scale, especially one that is constantly growing.

 

I just dont feel a troop program can be successful unless the SM is fairly close to the parents. Especially in this day and age of helicopter parenting. I could be wrong about this being a concern for you stosh, but it something to think about.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[WAKWIB]

jblake47:

Based on your description the boys aren't necessarily "expected" to do all these things, but have volunteered. I can't judge the results, but the picture you paint sounds great. Apparently a culture has developed in the Troop where the boys have taken a lot of ownership. As an adult you can try to foster that kind of culture but in the end it is the Scouts who rise to it. In a few years you may have a group of boys that are not so motivated. I think this current situation is a good wave to ride and I hope it continues. I hope that there is not something more to the story that would drive the parents to go over your head to the DE. That doesn't sound too good.

[The Blancmange]

Wow, you can please some of the people some of the time. . . Sounds to me like you are doing everything right.

 

Our troop has been struggling to get the PLC to take ownership and do the things your boys are doing. They are used to a past culture of adult leadership and just seem reluctant to utilize their new empowerment, despite much training and encouragement. I'd love to know more about how you got them to this point.

 

I'm curious what the DE and UC's response to the parents was. I certainly hope that it was to support you. I can't imagine even approaching a DE with an issue like this: "Well Mr. DE seems that Mr. Stosh, our volunteer scoutmaster, is giving my son too much responsibility. I would much rather see Stosh do all the work so my son can just go along for the ride. That's how we do it at home."

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

When is too much leadership too much? When a leader is micromanaging the process.

 

I've been very impressed by your postings on how your Troop operates. It doesn't seem as if you're expecting too much of your Scouts. It appears to me that you're pushing them to the limits of their boundaries, and they are responding very positively.

 

I suppose the first response to your situation I would have is to question the Committee Chair on why you first heard about this meeting from the DE and not the CC.

 

My second response would be to find out the specifics of what the parents were complaining about. I'd want to know specific examples of things the parents felt the Scouts shouldn't have to do.

 

My third reaction would be to contact the ASMs and find out what they think.

 

The based on all of that, or perhaps not:

 

My fourth reaction would be to hand the CC my Scoutmaster patch at the next Committee Meeting and wish them all the best of luck. If all the ASM's follow suit, all the better.

 

 

[eisely]

There may well be more to this than meets the eye. It is unusual for parents to go around all the troop leadership to the unit commissioner and the DE. At a minimum there is likely some lack of communication with those parents.

 

Perhaps there were one or more recent incidents where something went awry at an event or activity that you appeared to blow off. It is also possible that there are some parents who simply disagree with the entire idea of a boy run troop. Such parents need to spend some time talking to their sons about what the boy wants out of scouting and what the boy thinks of the troop's programs.

 

It would be interesting to know what the UC and DE actually said or did in response to the complaints.

[ScoutNut]

What was the outcome of this meeting?

 

 

[The Blancmange]

I guess I overlooked the word "committee" in the original post. If Stosh is indeed talking about his own Troop Committee, and he did not receive any word from them about this meeting, I would be very upset. If that is the case, there are some serious trust issues.

[Twocubdad]

This one has my Spidey-sense all a-tingly. I can't imagine my DE having such a meeting. And there is no way he would do much more than to boot the problem back to the troop.

 

I recall from your earlier posts that you deal with the boys, your CC deals with adults. What has been your CC's response to all this? Why didn't she call you?

 

Where are the Scouts in all this? Do some of them feel unhappy/over burdened? Or is this just a parent thing?

 

[Twocubdad]

OH YEAH,

 

And the real question, which of the parents are stepping up to take responsibility for these functions which are over burdening the Scouts? Have a sign-up sheet when you meet with the parents.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think Eagledad has what's likely the right take on this, eh?

 

Selling youth leadership to parents is an ongoin' work of evangelization. Someone in the unit has to be preachin' the Good News pretty continuously, with backup from da choir of older boy parents. Compared to other youth programs and to Cub Scouts, Boy Scouting requires a bit of a conversion in attitude on the part of the parents, and yeh have to devote yourself to that cause as much as to the boys.

 

The other piece of it is whether enough support is happenin' for the younger fellows, particularly any PLs who are young fellows pushed into sink-or-swim leadership roles by their choice of patrol. Yah, sure, it might be that the lad gets it together with a parent's help at home, and yeh see the results jblake47 talks about in the troop. But jblake may not be seein' the frustration and struggle on the part of the boy that the parent sees at home. So the two perspectives are different. Yeh gotta get people communicatin', so jblake figures out if/when more support is needed and da parents learn the vision of why the frustration and struggle and hard youth leadership work is really the best sort of thing for their kid's growth.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

I, too, am curious as to what triggered this situation. The meeting with DE, UC, Committee and parents was held while I was working with the boys so I was not privy to any of the discussion. I set up an appointment for next Tuesday with the DE to find out more. I'm not going to worry about it until then.

 

The "trick" to empowering boys is to ask questions. 3 years ago our boys had a bad experience at our council's summer camp. The camp was troop method and the boys wanted to do patrol method. During the after activity review the boys expressed a lot of frustration and disappointment. I simply asked where they would want to go if not there. They had no idea they could pick and choose. One boy said he could do a Google search on the internet and see what came up. He came back with a report on a camp that sounded perfect. I then asked him what we should do next. He came with the registration information, MB, etc. the next meeting and presented to the boys. They seemed to think it might work. From that point on, I just stayed out of the way and occasionally asked how things were going with it. Always got a positive response so I stayed out of the way. The boys asked me to drive and I said, no problem. We went and the boys had a fantastic time. It really is a nice camp. They voted to come back even before the week was out. They asked if it was possible to register again right away for next year. I said I didn't know, but the office might. The boy came back and said yes and that our deposit/refund for this year could be used for next year. I said sounds good and he went back and signed us up. Since that time, no one has ever suggested there be any need for adults to be involved in the process except for 2 to show up for camp and drive the boys to the camp.

 

Popcorn sales two years ago kicked off at the August Roundtable. I asked the boys if they wanted to make some money for camp and told them about the kick off meeting. Two boys volunteered to check it out and ended up at the roundtable, collected up information and ran the program for the year. Again, I stayed out of the way. This year a different boy wanted to do it so he did. I stayed out of the process. I really didn't think the this year boy could do it, but he did a great job at my surprise.

 

Whenever an activity comes up I collect the information at roundtable. I ask if there are any boys wanting to check it out and if no one shows interest then I toss it in the garbage. Heck, why should I spin my wheels setting up a program that no one is interested in. On two separate occasions, the boys must have had second thoughts about it and dragged the paper out of the garbage and did it anyway. Again, I stayed out of the way.

 

I have asked for periodic reports on the progress of their projects just to see how well they are doing. That's as far as I go with my involvement.

 

Occasionally I will have an activity that I generate. I announce to the boys that I'm going to be going whitewater kayaking on such-and-such weekend and they are invited to go along if they wish. I plan only for myself, the rest of the boys have to figure out how they are going to get themselves there and have equipment once they arrive. I let the boys know how many available seats I have in my vehicle so they can plan around that. If they don't want to go, I have a nice quiet weekend of kayaking.

 

There have been occasions where the boys generated out of thin air activities that they want to do, i.e. backpacking trip or canoe trip. The only requirement they must meet is 1-2 registered SM/ASM and a parent chaperon if only 1 registered leader. I heard it was a nice trip. I was busy that weekend.

 

There is one technique I use to instigate activity by the boys and that is to reiterate their own feelings. I'll say something like, "I'm bored, we don't get out often enough." Or, "That sounds interesting, I'll probably go to that." If they show some interest I may follow it up with letting the boys know how many open seats I have in my vehicle. It usually sparks something that may or may not go anywhere, but at least they have had the opportunity to consider it.

 

FC scouts should know how to put together a trip whether it be a weekend camporee, a canoe float or summer camp. There is no need for adult involvement.

 

Fundraisers? They don't have to do them unless they want to cut the cost of camp or get it paid for by others. It makes no never mind to me.

 

If the boys don't want to go and I do, well I can always go volunteer a week at camp (I've done that before). They'll give me a place to sleep and something to eat and doing some projects is usually a lot of fun, i.e. summer camp for adults

 

I'm there to help the boys, but my ASM's and I never do it for them. That includes even those dynamics that traditionally have been reserved for the adults. If the adults on the committee want the boys to do popcorn and they want to set it up and force the boys out there so they don't get soaked for the whole bill, that's fine. So far, the boys have always beat the parents to the punch and have done it themselves. They know that once the adults get a foot in the door, it's really hard to get it back out.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh