Tour Permit vs Tour Plan...

[moosetracker]

Oh I was not as offended as JW..

 

Our troop rarely go out of council.. But the few times they did, the over-reaction of the Council started out as funny, but got absurd.. Didn't stop us from going out of council though.. We do have good camps, but it was the same MB's offered year after year.. Lakes the same, afternoon activities were the same.. I also know many troops from out of Council go to it, and I don't think they turn them away..

 

They started shaking up their program after that to , which was great and if we had anything to do with it.. But, every now and then the troop may still go out of council.. Because the change was very good for our troop, and the kids came back charged and excited due to the shake up of our own program..

 

It really was win-win.. But, the camp has enough out-of-council troops that they will not fold because one troop of about 20 kids that is in-Council dosn't attend that year..

 

You can joke about it, but don't get serious about it.. The shake up is good..

[Beavah]

Yah, I got Tokala's joke, eh? Yeh just have to understand da perpective of council program people. Good caution for yeh, though, Tok.

 

SMT224, to answer your question, yes, national had problems with the old national tour permit system in that they didn't want to handle it anymore. So they dumped it, which made the old local tour permit da only document. So they spruced that up so it could handle longer and international trips as well as "local" ones and renamed it Tour Plan.

 

Yah, I loved da bit about 4 pages of standard letter size being an improvement over two pages of legal sized .

 

Since Tour Plans are now exclusively a local council thing, national is apparently getting out of da electronic form business. But there's nuthin' that says your council can't opt to create an electronic submission system. They might even do a better job of it, just to get da FOS contributions from hundreds of stunned, happy scouters.

 

Beavah

[JMHawkins]

I'm not really offended so much as dissapointed, and I'm probably coming across harsher than I mean to. I really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't mean to "scold" Tokala (which I realize it probably sounds like I'm doing). I'm sure he (or she) isn't a petty tyrant, but I thought it was important to let him know the joke raised doubts. Why?

 

It underscores a question about the Tour Permits/Plans (which also applies to a bunch of other "paperwork" like the Health Forms and mandatory training). What's the purpose of these things? If the Tour Plan exists to help Council ensure the unit volunteers are following important saftety rules (and to help the unit volunteers themselves do this), that's great. We can quibble about the details here and there, but the objective is good and "scoutlike" and worthy of our respect and cooperation. But if the purpose is to give Council brickbats to keep unit volunteers in line with petty Council dictates, then they're bad and prove Council unworthy of our trust, loyalty and obedience.

 

Folks like Tokala are in a possition to fight against the bureaucratic tendencies. The joke makes me think he's not fighting against them. Even if he isn't indulging in them, that's still dissapointing.

 

So, no offense intended Tokala, I'm sure you have a great sense of humor.

[Tokala]

No offense taken from anyone. I know my comments stir things up and many times that is my intention. I grew up in this Council as a Cub and Boy Scout. This is the first time I have been "allowed" to serve on the Executive Board/Committee. I would never attempt to limit a units opportunities. The flip side is I have units tell me that they won't go to our camp (for no apparent reason) and then gripe about having to pay some camp use fees. If our own units supported our summer camp, we wouldn't need the camp fees. Since the unit leaders don't see the budgets and what it takes to keep the lights on and the water running year round, I can make comments like that to make them see things.

 

Some might think that I am serious, but those are the stubborn ones that won't support the camp anyhow. The rest begin to realize how we can all work together. If we discontinue our summer camp, I see the property sold and our Council merged with the neighboring Council. Then those people will realy have something to gripe about.

[qwazse]

As I mention in another thread. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your regular meeting location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops?

 

My VP-admin is going to love this!

[Scoutfish]

So this must be a council specific and at the council's disrection right?

 

I just filled out a tour permit for our pack family camping and the only form on our council's website was a 2 page PFD document that specifically labeled for trip under 500 miles.

 

 

Biggest thing it wanted to know was wether we had the appropriate ( by that, I mean required) people with the necessary training for the events you are planning ( BALOO, SSD, SA, Weather,etc...)

 

Then there was the vehicle info if traveling by bus or vans, then the most basic of info such as start ande stop time and the number of scouts and the nukber of adults going.

 

 

It took me longer to find out the age of my ACM than it did to fill out the report.

[SMT224]

As the OP on this post, I want to report on my experience with the Tour Plan...

 

I downloaded the fill-able pdf Tour Plan, filled it out on my computer with general information & saved it, then added the specific information for our March camping trip and printed it. I took it to the Troop meeting and had the CC sign it. I signed it, and took it into to work the next day and faxed it to Council.

 

I was amazed to find an email from Council when I got home that evening with a pdf attachment of the signed and stamped Tour Plan. I printed it out and now I'm ready for the camping trip.

 

So I guess it works! Not as bad as I expected.

 

[qwazse]

Our council already had our old TP application in Xcel spreadsheet format. So the online operation is same as usual. (Some of my computers are "vintage" systems and don't do the pdf's as well, but that's alright.)

 

Some inconvenient changes:

Our old TP accepted a committee member's signature. The new one requires committee chair. (So much for delegation.) This is offset by an electronic signature method.

Member No is not something I kept handy. My youth officers aren't the best at tracking such things.

Information for each day of the tour: not always realistic as some discussed above. The simplest itinerary our crew has is depart, arrive at insertion point, hike/raft/climb/sail each day as conditions permit, arrive at extraction point, return.

 

Things I like

I'm all for maps, etc ... as long as councils can accept that the older the group, the greater the likelihood of plans changing once they are out of cell-phone contact.

The unit single point of contact.

 

 

[Hawkrod]

Our unit just had a tour plan denied to go to the Council camp because we did not have a Baloo trained leader going. I talked to several people at Council and nobody knows what to do because they told me that we are not required to have a Baloo leader at resident camp but the form is kicked out if you don't have one. The worst part is we have had several people who scheduled to take Baloo but the district trainer kept cancelling the class (one time the participants said they were already there to take it when they found out it was cancelled!). I like the new form but hate that we still have to fight these minor issues. If our Council had not required a tour plan for all overnighters it would not be an issue. They also could have simply not required a tour plan for overnighters at Council camps and we would still be okay but because we are relatively remote and the last district trainer was derelict we have to suffer.

[ScoutNut]

Scoutfish, your council has not updated it's forms page. What you filled out is the old Local Tour Permit #34426.

 

As of March 1, 2011, that form is no longer valid. The new form is the Tour Planning Worksheet #680-014, and can be found here -

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx

 

If it was after March 1 when you sent in the Tour Permit, I suggest calling your council ASAP to find out if it will be accepted. You don't want to loose a week or two, when you find out it has been denied, and then have to send in a new one. Especially when the new forms require a 3 week notice.

 

 

Hawkrod, talk to whomever it is at your council Service Center who approves Tour Plans. There is nothing "automatic" about these. They are not done online, or read by computer only. There is a human who is rejecting it. Find out who that is, and talk to them.

 

Also, you are not limited to only taking BALOO in your home district. BALOO can be taken in any district, or even any council. You might have to travel a longer distance to reach the training, but then again, you might find one from another council that is being held at a location that is close by. Stop blaming the District Trainer, and start looking for other class offerings.

[Hawkrod]

Sorry, the District trainer screwed this one up (and several others) and deserves all of the blame for failing to provide the program that she scheduled. The leaders realize training can be done anywhere but they did not plan to travel because it was scheduled locally and it is a minimum hour plus driving in any direction to another District from where I am and many local leaders here could not possibly afford to travel for the training. For some of our District leaders like those at Fort Irwin it can be a three hour drive each way to the next District and so it is critical that the training be conducted as scheduled. Better to not be put on the schedule than scheduled and canceled at the last minute over and over. Unfortunately I did not know about this until a few days ago or I would have conducted the training myself (I was the previous trainer). Fortunately we just got a new pair of training co-chairs and they are committed to rectifying this immediately and we will be having Baloo and OWL ASAP (and yes, I have offered to assist). I am waiting to find out about the tour plan as I had already talked to the DE so based on your explanation I will call Monday.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[SeattlePioneer]

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[SeattlePioneer]

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[Scoutfish]

Figures it's not valid.

Still, it was different from last years which was 5 or 6 pages.

 

The whole times I was filling it out, I thought to myself: "This is just TOO easy, I must be doing something wrong!"

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Was at training yesterday.

 

In my Council:

 

The filled-in pdf may be emailed to the Council office (with a "signature page" in the body of the basic email ... you can cut/paste the words straight from the Council website).

 

3 weeks is what the Director of Support Services (he's the guy who signs in my Council) wants, but case by case he'll work with units.

 

Units at the boundaries will have their routine stuff handled using common sense (SMs are to call the DSS, they'll talk and reach a middle ground, especially on the cross-boundary issue).

 

Cub Packs are up in arms over the Tour Plan requirement for any aquatics event. Too bad, so sad.