Tour Permit vs Tour Plan...

[SMT224]

Have been on work travel quite a bit lately, so must have missed something, but our Council recently sent out guidance stating that the Tour Plan will replaces the Tour Permit as of 3/1/11.

 

From what I've read, the Tour Plan is only applicable for trips over 500 miles. So now what do we do for our usual monthly camping trips (always way under 500 miles) where we had submitted a Tour Permit in the past? Do we just submit nothing? I've requested a clarification from Council, but haven't heard anything back yet.

 

What was the problem with the Tour Permit anyway?

 

Can anyone shed light on this clear as mud change? Thanks!!

[moosetracker]

Tour Plan is a little more lax then the tour permit was, but not just for 500 miles or more. It is for anything out of your council, and within council if it is concidered a high adventure course.. We had a thread on in may a week or 2 back, I will see if I can locate it an post the link to it here for you.

[moosetracker]

This was the original discussion.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=301715&p=3

 

then it got off topic, so this one was started to put it back on-topic

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=302291

 

[Eagle732]

For my troop it becomes a real pain. Our meeting hall is located 2 block outside of our council. The way I read it every time we walk out the door we need a permit! Scouting for Food, permit. Camp at the local park a mile away, permit. Attend Scout Sunday at the local church, permit. Even if we go to a place within our council we technically traveled outside the council to get there so do we need a permit?

 

Years ago when I was a CM and was on the district training team teaching CMs I asked our DE to specify when a Local Tour Permit was needed. The answer was when you travel outside of the county (our district followed county lines). From that point I have always considered "outside of the county" to mean our county, the one we are located in.

[moosetracker]

Eagle - as long as your moving back into council I don't think you need one for driving out.. My reasoning is they say you don't need a tour plan if going to a council camp even if it is outside of the council area.. You have to drive outside the council to get to that council camp, so if no tour permit is needed there....

 

I would ask your council about the other.. Maybe the "within town of the unit" will still apply.. Not positive, but it a possibility..

[Troop22]

I just found out about the new Tour plan yesterday. I also do not have a good understanding yet. I do know now I have to give 21 days notice, I need track down my COR or committee chair for a signatures (it is a task to get them to answer an email), fill out a daily Itinerary: It is required that the following information be provided for each day of the tour (When weather changes so might the itinerary). and fill out details over and over again that the council already has on file.

Sorry for the attitude but I know from past experience that every little detail is hard to give when you away from home.

[SMT224]

Thanks for the links moose! I've now read through the past posts and am glad to know that I am not alone in my confusion!

 

Is this all happening because the online Tour Permit at scouting.org was a bit confounding? Is that why they emphasize that the Tour Plan is "on standard 8.5 x 11-inch paper!"

 

I'd finally figured out the Scouting.org on-line Tour Permit and could crank out one in about 5 minutes. Now I guess I'll just add relevant info to the fillable pdf Tour Plan save a couple different versions, and will likely be able to get in the groove after a few months of getting up to speed.

 

What I'm still unclear on, even after reading all the relevant posts on this forum, and going through the official guidance a second & third time, is when and under what circumstances I need to file a Tour Plan, where to send it, and what I will ultimately end up with when I head out on the outing.

 

Again, what was wrong with the Tour Permit?

 

And why didn't National at least ask those out in the field who go camping every month of the year and file a Tour Permit for everyone of those outings??

 

This was certainly a top down action by National!!!

 

[Beavah]

Yah, close as I'm hearin' this is a result of the take-down of da regional offices. If yeh weren't aware, da regional offices used to handle national tour permit applications (those for over 500 miles or out of country). Regional offices were all shuttered and moved back to national, eh?

 

So the core of the matter is that national is getting out of the tour permit business entirely, includin' the online form. Everything is goin' to the councils, even long or out of country trips. That's why da extra week, for processing those harder things (national tour permits took a month or more, eh?)

 

So pretty much this is all just Irving doin' something close to the right thing, and turfing things back down to councils where hopefully they know you better and can be more responsive. It should be an improvement. Of course, da communication has been poor and they gummed up da works with all the additions of when a tour permit is required language, which might make things a lot more confusing. What else is new, eh?

 

Give your local councils time to sort out da confusion and I expect you'll find things settle down to somethin' that's workable.

 

Da other interestin' thing is that they finally listened to someone in legal risk management and changed da name. A permit that must be approved implies oversight and supervision, which exposes da BSA and the councils in cases like da Florida debacle. Asking a unit to just submit a plan which is marked as received rather than approved is more prudent, and more accurately reflects da reality of the relationship and how these things are handled.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle732]

moose,

Have you ever heard of the saying "better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission"?

I'm going with the current set up until somebody with authority tells me something different.

[Troop22]

I just went down to the Council office to understand the Tour plan. If you see the last line of "when you need a tour plan" It stated "at the Councils Discrection" my council decided they want it for everytime we travel even within the Council.

I also ask a question about the Daily Itinerary. I ask "What if while we are on our trip we have to change the daily Schedule from one day to another. For example Day #1 we plan a five mile hike and Day #2 we have time planned to go to a museum. We wake up on day #1 and we have thunder/lighting storms and for safety reasons we decide go to the museum on day #1 and move the Hike to Day #2.

I was told if we swiched days we would not be covered by Scout insurance.

[SeattlePioneer]

Troop 22,

 

 

I think I'd inform the rest of the Scout families of that policy ansd start looking for a Campfire or other youth group with which to volunteer.

[The Blancmange]

 

I was told if we swiched days we would not be covered by Scout insurance.

You should ask this person why they choose not to follow the Scout Law. This is simply a lie.

[Beavah]

Yah, what Blancmange said. The fellow in your council is being completely irresponsible.

 

Hopefully, most councils will be more service-minded and intelligent about things than what Troop22 reports. That's just dangerous, and whatever tom-fool told yeh that, T22, is really puttin' people at risk. Itineraries have to change all the time because of weather or other safety/logistics needs. If some poor scouter refuses to change an itinerary because he's worried about what his tour plan said vis a vis insurance, he might well be puttin' kids at risk. "I have to get there" leads to the worst sort of safety judgment. Imagine pushing a kid with heat exhaustion because yeh have to make your itinerary campsite.

 

It's a Tour Plan, eh? Plans can and should change. Or as we tell scouts, the plan isn't important, but the planning is.

 

Beavah

 

[Troop22]

The council is holding a roundtable tonight.I will definatly be there to get answers.

 

New tour plan and a new medical form. The legal Dept. at National sure has been keeping busy reacting to recent events.

 

Hey The Blancmange can you give me the low down on the insurance I have never had to deal with it.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, T22, there are probably a couple of dozen threads on "Insurance" here if yeh want to look for 'em.

 

In short, the BSA provides two types of insurance:

 

1) General liability coverage in excess of $15M for Chartered Organizations and volunteers. Liability coverage applies in all cases where at a scouting-related event you are accused of civil negligence leading to harm of another's person or property. That can include running the red light ("still pink!") and getting into an accident while on a scout trip to having a kid toss a gas can in a fire injuring several (negligent supervision), to accidentally burning down a forest.

 

2) Limited accident medical coverage (optional). If purchased by the unit or council, this coverage provides limited medical benefits for registered members and guests for accidental injury at a scouting event. We're talkin' enough to cover a deductible or a simple ER visit, not enough to pay for majory surgery or rehab.

 

Insurance #1 is provided as a term of the charter agreement, and is governed by a contract. Internal documents like da Tour Plan or the Guide to Safe Scouting have no substantive bearing on insurance. However, a few things on da unauthorized activity list (like skydiving) are exclusions on the master contract, so if yeh hurt someone while skydiving that's goin' to be on the skydiving center's coverage or your own. Aside from those exclusions, however, or willful or wanton injury (like beating a kid), the general liability coverage applies. It's there specifically to help scouters who make mistakes, eh? Because if yeh didn't make a mistake, yeh aren't liable in the first place. Da coverage provides both for legal defense and payment of judgment or settlement.

 

Both of those are nice benefits of Scouting, eh? They're there specifically so that you never have to worry about volunteering. That's their purpose, eh? To put your mind at ease, and make it easy for you to give your time and talent to the program, and make it easy for CO's to agree to charter scouting units.

 

Anybody who lies about da coverage to try to scare you is doin' a profound disservice to the scouting community, by damaging our image and reputation with chartered partners and volunteers. They should be taken gently but firmly into a quiet side room for "re-education."

 

Beavah