Venture Crews at Klondike Derbies

[BadenP]

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Fox 76]

BadenP, I did not ask my question because I was worried about girls kicking boys butts. I asked because I don't think that a Crew's participation in the Klondike in this manner was appropriate.

 

Since the girl/boy issue has been raised (sarcastically), I will only say that it is still called the Boy Scouts of America. No doubt someday the BSA will be called Scouting USA (tried unsuccessfully when I was a Scout in the seventies) or the Scout Association of the United States, similar to Canada or the UK, taking the gender reference out entirely. Scouting in the U.S. has been moving in that direction since the co-ed Venture program started. Some Troops are de facto co-ed already, where the co-ed Crew is basically just another Patrol in the Troop. The Troop that I left functioned precisely that way, but that's in another thread.

 

Judging by a few of the replies I've received, it appears that I will have to accept that my opinions on Crew/Troop interactions are aberrant, if not downright blasphemous. I'll keep my head down on this and concentrate on helping my sons, and the other boys in our Troop, get all that they can out of Scouting.

[Eagle92]

Fox,

 

1) Have you talked to the person in charge of the Klondike Derby about the issue? That individual may be the best person to talk to about the matter.

 

2) How is Venturing doing in your district, i.e. is it thriving, only a few crews, etc.? That may be a deciding factor in why Venturing units are invited to attend: there are not enough crews to organize a district event for them. I know in my neck of the woods, there is only 1 active crew, and they do participate sometimes in District events, besides working staff.

 

3) As some have pointed out, one of the challenges of the BSA is that Venturing and Boy Scouts do overlap, and there are activities appropriate for both groups. Further there are Scout leaders who do view Venturing as a threat to their unit, taking away their older, experienced scouts after investing time and energy into getting them up to snuff (an aside, same argument folks give against the OA). So if Venturing in your area doesn't invite the older scouts, it may be b/c of local pressure.

 

4) It looks as if national is on board with allowing Venturers do activities with Boy Scouts. Just look at NYLT for those Venturers under 18 (over 18 go to WB21C).

 

5) FYI Exploring, which predated Venturing, was coed from approx the late 60s, early 70s. I was in a coed Sea Explorer Ship in the 90s.

 

Hope this helps.

E92

[The Blancmange]

>>>>>Judging by a few of the replies I've received, it appears that I will have to accept that my opinions on Crew/Troop interactions are aberrant, if not downright blasphemous.

Maybe Fox76 just needs to articulate his concerns more. At this point, the only substantive issue with this Crew's paricipation that was mentioned was that some of them had a potty mouth. That certainly is something that should be addressed, but it has nothing do to with the fact that it was a Crew rather than a Troop.

Several people have asked whether the Scouts shared these concerns or had fun. This question has not been answered. Perhaps the OP would get responses that were not viewed as dismissive if he voiced some some basis for his objections. This was a high-school aged crew, so the age alone really isn't a valid issue. (This message has been edited by The blancmange)

[moosetracker]

Well in the OP's defense, I remember the original posts.. They were in a crew that basically was of girls that latched onto the troop, couldn't do any of their own program but was just tag-a-longs, and kindof acted steriotypical girlie with the batting of eyelashes and acting incompetent to a) flirt with the boys and b) because they never took the interest to really learn scouting skills..

 

They finally found a new troop, because the Venturing crew was ruining the troop they were in..

 

And it was an all girl Venturing Crew, a way for adult leaders in the troop to include their daughters into the boy scout program..

 

When you look at the OP's history, you have to realize that they are looking at this through a history of bad things happening when crews latch onto troops and just go for the ride.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Moose,

Thanks for posting some of the backstory. I can understand where someone would be upset with a Crew that only had members chasing after the boys.

 

But as folks constantly mention, all scouting is local. Things that happen in my neckof the woods wouldn't occur elsewhere, and vice versa.

[BadenP]

Moose

 

Nice story you made up there but none of that was in the original post.

Fox, from his posts,apparently does not like Venturing, especially because crews are coed, okay he is entitled to his opinion. However someone invited the crew to the event and Fox is mainly upset because they participated in and won an event, which IMO is a way over the top reaction.

 

Fox

Yes it is Boy Scouts of America but coed scouting has been around a long time, starting with the original Exploring program, Sea Scouting, and Venturing and is not going away anytime soon. Kids of today are very different from kids fifty years ago, and unlike many adult scouters do not seem to have a problem with coed scouting. Now this seems to be one isolated case which you can bring up at the next roundtable to see if your fellow troop leaders agree with you and make any necessary changes for the future. If you are just looking for a sympathetic ear for your own viewpoint I am sure you will find a few in here. Look, scouting has been in a state of continual change over the years, some of them good and some not so good, but it is not going to stop just because a few old time scouters want to preserve the program of fifty years ago.

[moosetracker]

The original post about the problems is in this thread..

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=179776#id_267539

 

I am not sure if the comment of them moving was a follow up in the same thread, or a thread after that..

 

I got some info wrong crew did have own meeting night, but they were all girls, they did hang out and do nothing during troop nights.. They got the boys to just hang with them.. etc etc..

 

So sue me my memory a little fuzzy, but the jist of it was correct..

[sherminator505]

Sometimes the line between Boy Scouts and Venturing gets blurred. Then again, what do you expect when Boy Scouting has become what older Cubbing used to be, Venturing has become what Boy Scouting used to be, and a large number of Scouters are either running oversized Lions' Dens or Rovering?

[qwazse]

It is a mistake to assume that crew members more advanced scout skills. We have several things going against us ...

 

1. A lot of venturers were never boy scouts, so they missed out on 3 years of training.

2. A lot of crews specialize in one activity (say skiing) and don't camp much.

3. We have the same problems troops have coordinating older scouts into a unit. Heck our crew is a distinctly outdoor group and we're lucky if we get 6 camping nights a year.

4. Since crews have diverse foci, it is hard to hold an event that attracts multiple crews in one location.

5. Since there are fewer crews than troops they have to travel farther to have the same turn-out.

 

All of these things conspire to cause a crew to be isolated and miss out on scouting ideals. Thus is important to include venturers as participants at district events.

[moxieman]

At past Klondikes, we've had three age categories:

 

Webelos (who may attend and compete if they are invited by a troop)

"Younger" Scouts (All First Class or under)

"Older" Scouts (Above First Class or mixed group with at least one scouts above First Class)

 

Venture Crews are allowed to participate and are lumped into the "Older" category.

 

We've only had a crew participate twice so far. The first time, it was a brand new crew, half boys, half girls. They didn't even have a crew flag yet. Two of the boys were also Boy Scouts. The crew took second place in the older category. They were very psyched and it helped the crew 'cause we award camping gear rather than trophies. So they got themselves a two-burner camp stove.

 

It motivated the scouts. The crew didn't place the following year. However, they've remained very active and have provided us a lot of service at other district (and council) events in return.

 

So, yeah, we have no problem with it in our district.

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally, I'm with Qwaze.

 

 

Venturing sounds like a difficult program to make work. Let's offer them every encouragement.

 

If you have enough crews to justify a separate scoring category, fine. If not, it's more important to give them an opportunity to compete.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[ScoutNut]

Moose - While from his previous posts over the last year, it is obvious that Fox76 has had a bad experience with Venturing combined with Boy Scouting, no where in any post of his, is it even so much as implied that the Crew at the Klondike in this thread is the same Crew from his old Troop.

 

As far as I can tell these are two entirely separate incidents, involving two separate Crews.

 

His main problem with the Klondike situation in this thread was the fact that a Venture Crew was participating in, what he felt should be, a Boy Scout Troop only, non-coed, activity.

 

He dislikes Venturing in general, and co-ed Venturing in particular, and this bias has a tendency to color just about every contact he has with any of these BSA units.

 

I have no problem with Troop only, or Crew only, activities. I also have no problem with multiple program units attending events together, as long as the activities are age appropriate for the youth attending. Like the Crew attending the Klondike. I would have a big problem with opening an activity up to Crews, but then restricting female members from attending.

 

I think a lot of these questions would be solved, and the programs made stronger, if BSA would just get rid of the overlap (and Venture Patrols), and make co-ed Venturing the next level after Boy Scouts. Scouts would then go from Cub Scouts, to Boy Scouts, to Venturing. But that is just me.

 

Fox76, as I stated earlier, if you really want to affect change, and keep Boy Scout and Venturing events separate, you have to work thru your District and Council. The best way to do this is to have your COR (who is a voting member) attend the District Committee meetings and bring it up there.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Scoutnut,

 

 

In my district there is an Outdoor Activities Chair who is resoponsible for organizing the Klondike Derby and Camporee.

 

A chairman is appointed to organize the Klondike Derby and the Outdoor Chair organizes the Cqamporee. Both people tend to be pretty desperate for people to help with those activities.

 

Pretty much any Scouter who was interested in helping would have an oar in helping to decide the terms of the competition, and they would probably be glad to hear people's ideas on how that competition was organized in any case.

 

Just a couple of weeks ago I discussed the extent to which Webelos Dens would be able to participate in our Camporee in early June. We decided that the new Webelos I dens would not be invited to compete but that the new Webelos II dens would be.

 

Districts vary in how they handle such things, but I bet many would welcome more Scouters attending district committee meetings and that more Outdoor Activity committee chairman would be glad to discuss such issues.

[moosetracker]

Scoutnut - you have never had a past bad history with something "color" your view of the way you look at things? I never said it was the same crew what I said the OP has a History.. Their history has colored their viewpoint.. First impressions an all that.. Being human that is understandable..

 

People asked Fox to articulate his/her concerns more.. This gives you a backhistory of where his/her concerns lies..

 

I don't know if Fox is still watching this post or not, but my feeling is if you want to change his/her mind, it would be better to state positive reasons for the combining of Troop & Crew, rather then attacking as if he was a bigot or prejudice about the topic.. They are working with bad past history.

 

By the way their son is now in a troop and a Venturing Crew, although an all male Venturing Crew..

 

this is from a back post:

 

 

My older son chose a fairly large Troop (70+) with a good number of active ASM's and boys his age. They have a Venture Patrol (which he was put into) AND a co-ed Venture crew, which hardly interacts with the Troop at all. All of the boys in the VC are also active Scouts in the Troop, and the two groups have seperate activities. This is the way it's supposed to be!

 

 

So "No" not against all Venturing.. Maybe co-ed, maybe all girl.. But, that is because their back history has colored their view.. And if it wasn't the same all girl crew from the old troop. I would say this other all girl crew with "potty mouth" at a Boy scout events is probably strike #2..

 

Now for the OP's benefit what are good reasons to open the boy scout events up to the Venturing Crew?? Qwazse & Moxieman & Seattle get the point, and have posted some beneficial information.