CO Pack does not support CO Troop

[JMHawkins]

Oh, and clemlaw makes a great point. Whatever our obligations as unit leaders are to the CO, the CO certainly doesn't have an obligation to force other unit leaders to run the other units the way we think they should. Bringing the entire "the CO owns the Pack" issue in as an argument for why the Troop should expect the Pack to defer to them has things upside down. The assumption is that the Pack leaders are misbehaving, but - since the COR/IH is the boss - that's not up to the Troop leaders to decide. Let the COR know you have concerns, sure, but if the COR says he expects the units to operate independent of one another, well, after many, many posts, I think we've established that the CO is the boss. You run the program the way they want you to. If they want you to run it with minimal interaction on their part, you run it that way or quit.

 

Would an ideal CO foster close relations between all the units it charter? Absolutely. Is every CO ideal? No. If your CO isn't perfect, do you quit? Do you make such a pain of yourself with the COR that he decides chartering a troop/pack/crew is more hassle than it's worth? Would you rather the boys have no scouting opportunity at all if the only CO available is an absentee one?

 

As someone going through forming a new unit and reviewing the CO situation of an existing unit, I can tell you that CO's don't grow on trees. COs willing to put up with soap operas are even more scarce. So my advice is, if you've got a COR who will referee a dispute like this, consider yourself very fortunate and don't abuse the COR's willingess to be involved in something bound to be unpleasant. Make sure you've done everything you can first to resolve the issue yourself. Make sure you are being perfectly reasonable in what you expect from the other leaders. Make sure the dispute is something that deserves the time and energy of such a valuable person as a committed, involed COR. Assume every single dispute resolution request you make to the guy could be the last straw for him, the one that makes him decide to throw in the towel and resign. Then ask yourself if the issue is worth it. Some issues will be, some won't. Part of being loyal is not taking advantage, of not burdening someone else with things you don't need to burden them with.

 

And if you don't have a COR like that, think about what might happen if you try to pull him into the dispute.

[Kamelian]

We aren't so unrealistic that we expect all the CO's pack members to join us automatically. That doesn't happen except on rare occasions, unless there's only one troop in town.

 

We aren't demanding to have all the cubbies join us from that pack... we simply expect the simple courtesy to be extended of having the pack leaders promote ALL THE TROOPS in town equally, without showing favoritism.

We also expect to NOT BE IGNORED, and to have the opportunity, when we send out an invitation for them to join us, to see the cubbies from time to time at our activities. It doesn't matter a whit to us which troop THE BOYS and their respective families elect to join ultimately, so long as it's truly THEIR choice, but we do have a problem when we begin to hear that the boys are being told to join one particular troop by the leaders, and also hear that the boys who choose other troops are being neglected or rejected in terms of quality pack attention. Every kid has the right to shop around and find the troop he feels most comfortable with, where he believes he'll fit in the best. This pack's WLs are subverting that right.

 

I liked the proposal (from a few suggestions back) for the IH to consider installing a couple of the troop's ASMs on the pack committee, and possibly also replacing the pack CC and one or more of the Webelos den leaders with other people. From what I have heard this week of the pack, many of the committee members have no clue about how the pack should be run - and they have acknowledged they are being run over and intimidated by the DLs & WLs who are so intent on railroading the boys into their pet troop.

 

I've also recently heard that the whole focus on pushing "The Chosen Troop" over all the other troops in town is the work of just 1 or 2 very influential individuals who have assumed the attitude that it's either their way or the highway. These guys apparently intimidate or badger everybody associated with the pack - the adult leaders, cubbies, and the family members.

 

SM and I have decided to approach the IH sometime over the next few days. I've known the IH personally for about 15 years. We need to let her know about the pack problems we perceive, to see what her opinions are, and to see what she's willing to do about it.

She also needs to know in detail about the problems we have run into with getting the COR to meet with us when he's needed for paperwork and so on. I suggested to SM that we ask her if she knows anyone who has a good handle on scouting programs through past experience, who would be a better alternative for the position than the current guy has been.

 

I have one other question... if the IH suggests it as a possible solution over the short term, to resolve a COR problem, can a CC also be appointed to double as COR in a troop where there are presently low adult numbers on the roster?

[ScoutNut]

>>"I liked the proposal (from a few suggestions back) for the IH to consider installing a couple of the troop's ASMs on the pack committee, and possibly also replacing the pack CC and one or more of the Webelos den leaders with other people."

[JMHawkins]

The CC and COR can be the same person, absolutely. However, the COR is supposed to be a member of the Charter Organization. He or she is the official representative of the CO on the unit Committee. If you're a member of your CO independant of Scouting, then you're eligible. If not, it'll need to be someone else.

 

I agree with ScoutNut though, the way you presented your plan, it sounds like a hostile takeover. Be prepared for angry parents and recriminations if you go that route, even if you have nothing but the best of intentions. How many of the parents in the Pack know you well enough to look beyond appearances? How many Den Leaders? Sounds like maybe the DLs won't be very happy at all. DL\WL is a huge job - maybe the biggest time commitment we ask of any adult volunteer in scouting. Who's going to do that job if the DLs all quit?

 

You mentioned it's just 1 or 2 influential leaders in the Pack. How old are their sons? If they're Webelos, it might be a better idea to let the situation resolve itself naturally. If they're going to be around longer than that, or you just can't wait, do you have a Unit Commissioner? Can you get some disinterested third parties to make an effort to bring folks together before you try to have your friend fire the Pack leaders and risk destroying the Pack?

 

Should we keep an eye open for a new thread from another scouter titled "Jealous Troop Trying to Take Over Our Pack - What Do We Do?"

 

(edit: completely independent of the Pack/Troop issue though, yes you definitely should speak to the IH about any problems you're having with your own COR, just keep in mind the COR is technially your boss, so standard protocols about going over your boss' head should apply...)(This message has been edited by JMHawkins)

[Hawkrod]

I see a storm on the horizon. You do realize that the if the Troop CC becomes the Troop COR then by default they become the Pack COR. You can't have different COR's for units under a CO. The system does not allow it. When the change to the Troop COR is input into the system they usually just change it for all the units but some Councils will call back and tell you they can't do it. Anywho, to suggest it is like a back room coup. Hawkrod

[Lisabob]

You know, Kamelian, if I had a dime for every arrogant boy scout troop leader who assumed that those dumb cubby leaders don't know a darn thing about scouting (let alone, about their own program), and a dime for every time the afore-mentioned boy scout leader was WRONG about some aspect of the cub program, I'd be able to take a nice vacation somewhere warm right now.

 

Be aware - you are coming across like that. It might be you're completely right about the pack, I don't know. But if you treat them like this in the real world, then it is not too surprising to me that they don't give you the time of day and that they encourage their boys to look at other (friendlier?) troops, instead of yours.

 

Might be, you want to examine why you feel such a need to try to take over the cub pack. Might be, your efforts would be better spent improving your own unit, first.

 

 

(edited for spleling, ergh)(This message has been edited by lisabob)(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[Beavah]

Yah, all in all havin' refereed more of these things than I can count, I prefer da CO to be brought in and be assertive in its authority, rather than it be left to adults within da units squabbling on an equal basis.

 

So I don't have as much issue with Kamelian that others seem to. This is a CO call, and they should be informed, not kept deliberately in the dark by the people who are workin' for them.

 

Now, Kamelian, what I'd also be tellin' the CO is that the most energetic volunteers are the ones who generate the most complaints about "running over" or "intimidating" others, eh? They're the folks who get things done on a timeline, which feels like being run over to folks who are clueless or stalling. They have a clear sense of purpose and goals which are driving 'em, which feels intimidating to those who don't.

 

If yeh drive out such people, yeh win the battle but lose da war, eh? Yeh end up with a much weaker cub pack, one that might not survive.

 

Proceed gently, with grace. Have da SM or ASM visit the pack meeting, or maybe be appointed ex officio. My guess is that the folks aren't really evil subverters, more like they're committed folks who have a vision, and it just doesn't happen to match yours. Yeh want to win 'em over and broaden their vision, maybe with a push and a nudge, or at least with enough room to save face.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

I do not have a problem with Kamelian talking to the IH about the problems the Troop is having with the COR, or the problems the Troop is having with recruiting.

 

What I find troubling is Kamelian telling/urging/suggesting to the IH what leaders in the Cub Pack need to be disciplined, or even kicked out.

 

What I find troubling is Kamelian getting the IH to appoint him as the COR for the Pack & Troop (granted not explicitly stated, but definitely implied), thereby giving himself the ability to fire the Pack leaders he finds troublesome, and place leaders from his Troop on the Pack Committee.

 

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I agree Scoutnut.

 

 

Good political strategy though. Short term.

 

A little longer term and it may result in no Cub Pack as parents and leaders abandon it.

[Twocubdad]

A point Kamelian made awhile back has troubled me -- that the pack really has no association with the CO at all. They meet at a school across the way, aren't members of the church, and don't do much with the church.

 

How many threads have we read of troops who couldn't get their foot in the door to recruit cubs from neighboring packs. The solution almost always is to start your own pack. I think this is the first time we've had this particular situation. I've wondered more than once reading this how one could go about creating a second pack at a CO without the cooperation of an existing pack. I know it is technically possible, but I can't fathom the ensuing political nightmare.

 

Given the non-relationship between the pack and CO, I've rather envisioned any attempt by the church bring the pack around to end with the pack leaders taking their ball and going home.

 

I think your plan for meeting with the IH is extremely high-risk. As Seattle says, it may be sound short-term, but painful in the longer term. Then again, in the very long term it may give you the opportunity to start a new, more cooperative pack. But given the leadership situation in the troop, it doesn't sound like you've got the horses to pull that off.

 

I would suggest going to the IH and having the conversation. BUT, don't go in with any pre-conceived solutions. Ask for her help to find solutions. Explain the situation as factually as possible. Don't demean the pack leaders. If they are as you describe, she will discover their nature eventually. Explain the long-term ramifications to the troop of not being able to recruit. (Being blocked out of your on back yard is probably a worse situation than having no pack at all.) Above all, be Scoutlike, positive and with the approach that you need her help to find a solution.

 

 

[Kamelian]

I have no interest in being involved in pack activities, except to ensure that (a) the program is being run effectively, fairly, and with the boys' future best interests at heart, and (b) the Cub Scouts and their families know they are able to go out and select a troop that best fits each boy and makes him feel most comfortable and accepted.

 

It rubs me the wrong way when I hear about kids who are being TOLD to go to THAT TROOP, who are discouraged from visiting or joining other troops because their DL has other plans for them, and who are treated like some kind of unwanted rubbish by one or two DLs for the sin of wanting to be in a unit where they aren't just another face in the crowd.

The "Pet Troop" in this instance is known as an Eagle factory, and has established a recognized long-term reputation for telling its members that if they don't make Eagle by age 14, they'll be kicked out of the troop. It's the most unfair, undemocratic, completely juvenile attitude I've ever heard of amongst adults, and I don't believe our IH would stand for what's going on if she knew all the details and particulars of what's involved in the whole picture.

 

For those who think I'm in this situation for control and glory - you're dead wrong. I couldn't care less about the control issue, and glory is the last thing I'm looking for. I did the pack routine from 1992 until 1997 with my son, and I did it for my son's sake, NOT because I derived much personal satisfaction from it. I was under a lot of pressure in my personal life. Doing scouting with my son was (at first) a big chore, until I learned to appreciate the finer aspects of camping, associating with people of similar interests, and started to relax enough to get a kick out of watching the kids do their thing. I was a single parent, and my ex was under serious scrutiny for having molested my daughter - he was not permitted to have unsupervised visitation with either of the kids for over 10 years following the divorce. My mother passed away at the end of 1991, shortly before my divorce was final, but I still had my dad to contend with. He was in a nursing home, so I had to take on the management of all of his farming and business affairs.

I had a substitute teaching certificate that I hated using because I got brain-freeze every time I had to be around large numbers of small children, but I enjoyed helping in the grade-school library and watching tables during the book fairs. Planning and paperwork for the pack was a cinch, but the worry over having to be at the weekly hour-long den and pack meetings were enough to give me migraines and cause me to lose sleep. It was a major thing for me to be able to go to the meetings every week and help the adults help their kids make their way through the various advancement activities so they could have fun & get their pins & patches.

 

The first two packs my son and I were with folded. Pack #1 folded 5 or 6 months after we joined, and we didn't find out about its failure until I tried to find out the following spring where to pay our annual dues for the current year. I was so new to scouting that I was completely unaware that there should have been monthly pack meetings and weekly den meetings - and there was none of that going on. That was the year my son was a Tiger cub. We didn't even get our membership cards from the pack after we paid our dues when we signed up, and my son never got his Tiger certificate.

 

Pack #2 was the pack we joined in the town where we lived at that time - I didn't know about its existence until after Pack #1 folded because my kids had been in school in the other little town where my dad was living in the nursing home, not in the town where we lived. Pack #2 was also in a different council. Pack #2 had been limping along for about 3 or 4 years by the time we joined, trying to gather steam and attract new members, and we all hoped it would take hold and get more kids, but it didn't. It wasn't for a lack of trying to make it work. My son also wasn't keeping up with the Wolf program material as well as I thought he should, and since he was the only Wolf cub that year, I held him over in Wolf for a total of about 16 months until his maturity level caught up with his ability to do the handbook activities. About the time we started my son in Bear Cubs, it came time to re-charter. There were just 3 kids and 3 adults left, including the CM, and the CM was having serious health problems and had to quit, so Pack #2 folded. We didn't have enough youth OR adult bodies to warrant rechartering.

 

My son & I then went to Pack #3. It was in the same BS council as Pack #2, but located in another town. My son excelled as a Bear cub and we fully expected to stay with that pack and then proceed on into its brother troop - but the council executive approached me in late summer 1995, personally, and asked me to help the Methodist pastor in the town where Pack #2 had been located, because the pastor wanted to charter a new pack. There would be 12 to 15 new boys, and meanwhile, I was asking 'where the heck were they when we needed them a year ago?' My name was needed on the new charter as COR, DL, & WL in order to have enough adult spots filled on the roster to get the thing off the ground, so we consented to help form Pack #4.

 

My son did well in Pack #4 Webelos, made AOL, and then in Fall 1997 I was again approached by the IH and the CE about setting up a new charter... this time for a troop, same CO. Again, my son and I were on the original charter - I was still listed as COR. By the time we graduated from Pack #4 about Sept 1997, our CM had taken a night job and quit his pack position almost 22 months earlier. I filled in for him while helping the IH find someone else... which never happened... and I wound up as acting CM for almost 2 years. We also lost the CC when he took a third job a year earlier, and by the time the troop was started, the pack had only 4 adult pack members trying to run the whole show. Fortunately the pack survived - new families came in and filled the necessary empty spots - but after all the pack failures I had experienced, I was left with a very bad feeling about dysfunctional units.

 

Moving on...

Although I had been exposed to troop activity when my adopted brother was in scouting, my first actual hands-on experience with Boy Scouts was in what I'll call Troop-A. I was still listed as COR for the CO that had Pack #4, and was also carried as an ASM and did newsletters each month to keep the CO and everyone's families informed. We lasted in that troop for about 7 or 8 months, before I finally got fed up with bull-pucky and witnessing the SM and his ASM buddies acting like backwoods hicks. They refused to get leader training, habitually brought beer, wine coolers, & cigars to campouts, drank & smoked in front of the kids, and generally acted like the Rules of Scouting didn't apply to them. The SM's son was kicked out of summer camp on the first day, in June 1998, for having no Class B physical signed by a physician - despite my telling the entire troop from October through May, weekly, and making it a headline on the front of all the monthly newsletters, that the physical was required for camp. The kid's doc wouldn't give him an emergency sign-off because the doc hadn't even seen the kid in over 5 years and refused to take responsibility in case the kid had some serious problem come up. For me, that was the last straw. I was preparing to move anyway, from a rental property that needed to be condemned because the foundation was caving in, to a house I was buying in the next town, so we joined the troop we had spent summer camp with. And that brings us to what I'll call Troop-B.

 

I joined Troop-B with my son shortly after summer camp ended in 1998. I had been through all the cub level training that had been offered in our area between Summer 1993 and early Winter 1997. By the time I gave Troop-B my application in late August 1998, I had done local training for Intro to District Commissioner Service, BS Fast Start (4 times), BS Leader Specific (twice), BS leader outdoor training (once) in a local classroom setting, a 1998 Bachelors course in College of Commissioner Science in HOAC, and went to Philmont for BS Basic Camping Skills.

In 1999, I took the Masters' course in College of Commissioner Science in Quivira, Scoutmastership Fundamentals, SM Specific again, a week-long Woodbadge course in Osage Trails, and went back to Philmont for BS Advancements. I also provided transportation & leadership for troop outings.

In 2000 I took the 1st-year Doctorate preparedness class for College of Commissioner Service in Quivira, returned to Philmont for BS Roundtables, and went on all the troop outings to provide transportation & give back-up leadership presence. I also remarried.

In 2001, I assumed the position of committee member in the troop and tried to assist wherever I could in the positive functions of the troop.

In 2002, I took the Doctorate of College of Commissioner Science in HOAC.

In 2003 I received a Boy Scout Leader's Training award, the first I had attained since I was awarded Cub Scouter, Den Leader, Webelos Leader & Cubmaster awards. I became the committee's Advancement Chair and held the position for over 2 years.

In 2004, my husband, son & I had to prepare to move from my husband's family farm to another location when the State of Kansas took our farm from us through imminent domain for a highway project. That wasn't completed until late 2005.

In 2005 I returned to HOAC for Continuing Education in College of Commissioner Science.

At the end of 2006, I went on hiatus until November 2010 when I was asked to return to the troop.

From 1998 through 2006 I attended PowWows, University of Scouting events, and almost every training session I could afford the time to go to, and went on practically every campout and summer camp and other activity the troop went on from summer 1998 through the end of 2006. I was also a commissioner for summer camp, a commissioner for the 1998 and the 2003 Quivira Council Encampments, a merit badge counselor, and filled other functions as requested by the troop and the council.

 

Frankly, guys - I don't need any glory, and I certainly don't want control. I want to see the doggoned pack work the way it's supposed to, and if that means hanging some pompous, self-centered idiot out to dry for using our CO's pack as his personal chick incubator for a particular troop's henhouse, then so be it. I have checked with a number of people who've been in scouting much longer than I have, whose opinions I trust, and not one of them believes I have any ulterior motives in this. It ticks me off no end when someone comes along and makes comments that start with "OH MY YOU CAN'T DO THAT" and end up with "I'LL BET YOU WANT TO CONTROL EVERYTHING." I don't want to stir the pot any more than is absolutely necessary... I just want to see the stupid pack operate the way it's supposed to, without the idiot factor involved with DLs who think the troop they are promoting is the only one worth anyone's consideration.

 

"IF" I am asked to become COR, and "IF" our DE says it's not a conflict of interest or an assumption of too much control (for a CC to take on the additional role), then I'll say yes, and set about helping my friend, in her function as IH, to find someone who has scouting knowledge and a sense of personal commitment to the program to take my place in that function at some future date. And, if stirring the pack's pot becomes necessary, in order to stir the bad influences into a place where they are less damaging, then I guess I'll have to do that, too. I just wanted to know if there is any hard-and-fast rule in BSA policy against someone taking both titles of responsibility.

[SeattlePioneer]

With all your Scouting experience and training and your Commissioner training inparticular, I'm surprised you can't come up with a less confrontational strategy than the one you've described.

 

If your friend the IH wants to appoint you COR, you can do just what you want. But Scouting depends on volunteers, and as I suggested earlier I think you would run a substantial risk of a Pyrric victory on the rubble of the Cub Pack.

 

Whether that is worthwhile is an interesting question. I certainly don't support some of the things you describe.

 

Your own experience with multiple Cub Packs shows how easy it is for a Cub Pack to fail, and the difficulties in making one work.

 

What you wanted was to be able to contact the Webelos families. If your IH asks the District Executive he should be able to get a current roster to give you with the contact information for Webelos Scouts and parents. You can invite them to an attractive activity and sell the attractions of your troop along with a strategy for avoiding hostility from current pack leadership.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

What I am reading is way, way different than anybody else.

 

I do not hear Kamelian saying that he wants the IH to make him the COR or that he wants to take over the Pack or punish the pack.

 

 

What I am hearing Kamelian say is this:

 

There is something wrong with the pack leadership because : They intimidate parents and scouts into joining only onparticular pack of their( the leaders) choosing.If the scouts ( and incidentally the parents too) choose otherwise, they are dropped of the radar and pretty much ignored nad no more mention is made for advancement, acheive,ment , awards, etc....

 

The deal - AS I READ IT - is that Kamelian sees that this particular leadership is not only doing a disservice to those scouts and their families, but blantantly making the whole program about thie own personal selfish needs.

 

Not allowing scouts to visit other troops?

Not allowing other troops to send invites .

Not telling the Cub Scouts about ANY troop's activities or going ons unless it is from the golden ticket troop?

 

These are all pretty much psycho-ish state of minds if you ask me.

 

And yeah, mabey it does seem a bit personal, but who would see it better than a troop within the same CO.

 

Matter of fact, any troop who brings this up "could" sound like they are crying because they are not getting scouts from the pack...but how else could it sound from any and all other troops who happen to noticethis?

 

FRom what I read, Kamelian has the same concerns and feelings that I do: The lesadership in that pack are acting like crazed dictators and there need to be changes made.

 

NOw, stop looking at this from a scouters point of veiw and look at it from a parents point of veiw:

 

"the leaders said it, so it must be true!" Regular parents have no idea what the rules and regulations are or how policies work other than what the leadership tells them. Why would they? They didn't go through the training and they do not even know about things like G2SS or any other SOP's unless the leadership makes them aware. That's how i ended up teaching BB gun at a pack campout - I did not have any idea or knowlede to tell me other wise.

 

And councils and districts do not tend to send training phamplets to non registered leaders/volunteers.

 

So what you have is rogue leadership misleading and flat out lying about scouting for thei own selfish needs.

 

I am not associated with that pack in any way myself, but would love to see those leaders booted not only from the pack, but any and all leadership positions in scouting.

 

 

Why?

Because the scaouts and parents are not being given their rightful chance to choose ( of their own free wil) what troop they may want to joing..

 

 

And as Kamelian said himself....it doesn't matter if they choose his troop or not...he just wants the scouts to be offered the oppertunity to know about it or their own chance to choose.

 

Maybe they will all stay away from Kamelian's troop, but at least let that be the decision of the scouts, not the leaders.

 

 

 

And that is what I am reading!

 

Gotta go...it's almost PWD time!