Chartered organization requesting fees

[evmori]

From the BSA Charter Agreement:

 

Provide adequate facilities for the Scouting unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.

 

Ya make an excellent point, John, but nowhere in the agreement does it state this facility must be provided free of charge.

[SeattlePioneer]

Stosh,

 

 

You describe a very realistic relationship with your American Legion chartered partner. Both the Troop and the Legion seem to be working together cooperatively to make things work.

 

In times of financial stress like these perhaps it's not unreasonable to ask Scout units to help with the costs of providing services. Frankly I don't know if a charge for utilities and such violates the Charter agreement. But some kind of charge doesn't sound unreasonable to me if the unit can afford it and still provide a quality program.

 

I also like the offer to help with fundraisers, too. That suggests an understanding and appreciation of the problems of the CO and a creative effort to be of help.

 

My own very weak pack has not been asked to make a contribution to the Catholic Parish that is our CO. Despite that, I am considering asking our Pack Committee to make a $25 contribution to the church to help with their good works.

 

I actually consider that a little bit more than a token gesture. I figure that even a small contribution is likely to be appreciated by the CO.

 

Times are tough. Perhaps more units should be thinking about what we can do to help our COs rather than what we can get from them.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Abel Magwitch,

 

 

Around here, schools that used to provide free facilities for Cub Packs are charging as a matter of school district policy this year. A pack that got free use of the school lunchroom in the past is paying $50 per session this year.

 

Other school districts, schools or school proncipals are indifferent or hostile to Scouting these days.

 

I wouldn't be too eager to abandon churches as chartered partners in favor of public agencies. I suspect that may have a propensity to bite units in varying ways.

[Twocubdad]

Asking to see their books or if they charge the choir rent is just going to piss people off.

 

The pack has a decision to make. First, philosophically, are you willing to pay the church anything or do you feel that's a violation of their charter?

 

If you are willing to pay, then how much? Can you afford $300? The whole $600? I think it is reasonable to go to the church and say they people YOU APPROVED to lead the pack think $XXX is all we can afford to donate to the church without having a serious impact on our ability to deliver the program THE CHURCH asked us to deliver.

 

To me, a good solution would be to give the church $200 and tell them that's the other half of the money you raised at your joint fund raiser. This year you'll donate all the money to the church and will do what you can to increase what you earn. I wouldn't promise them $600, but I would promise your best efforts toward the fundraiser.

 

Here's another thought: are you a member of the church? Is anyone in the pack a member? If so, let them take the lead.

 

And by the way, since your DE is too busy with "the numbers" here's a number she should consider -- ZERO. That's what she can expect from your pack's Friends of Scouting contributions since you'll be asking the parents to contribute money to the church instead of FOS. Your DE needs to do her dad-gummed job. DEs are supposed to meet with every COR and Institutional Head every year. The whole idea is to help build relationships between BSA and the COs to avoid these types of problems. I'm guessing your IH can't pick your DE out of a police lineup.

[Abel Magwitch]

I agree with your assessment. It is not me who is eager to abandon the church, it is the way my council is now doing business in the city. One by one as units sponsored by churches are allowed to die in my district; the council newsletter every other month boasts and welcomes the new units formed in the schools. Problem is you never see these units participate in any district activities.

 

Perhaps one day the city school district will decide it can no longer sponsor Scouting. The city school district where I'm from is projecting a 60 million deficit for next year and teacher layoffs are being discussed.

 

But on the other hand, churches are also non-profit entities like the BSA. Churches are also suffering from a lack of funds. I do not think it is wrong for a church to ask for a monetary pledge from one of its youth programs as the church does own the unit.

 

[Eagle007]

If the churches that are sponsoring the packs are anything like I've seen in my neck of the woods where they pass around the collection plate and continue to pass it around until they are satisfied with the offering then the packs are in trouble. It's called greed around here. Some, not all, of the church leaders want to line their pockets. I've seen it happen and continue to see it happen.

[eisely]

There is more to this request than meets the eye. I am skeptical of organizations asking for money without being willing to provide some kind of justification.

 

We use a public shool facility and pay a fee for doing so. One of the legacies of Jesse Helms is an obscure federal law prohibiting public schools that receive federal money from discriminating against the boy scouts regarding use of facilities. If a school district wants to charge a fee it may do so, but then it must charge everybody.

[clemlaw]

I also agree that making cracks about who pays for the choir robes probably isn't going to be particularly productive.

 

Apparently, as others have pointed out, the charter agreement states that the CO provides a meeting place. The original post states that the unit was asked whether it would "consider paying" a certain amount for utilities. I doubt if the charter agreement _prohibits_ the unit from making such a payment. Also, the church is under no obligation to sign the charter agreement next year. And if signing it is a financial burden for them, then it's not realistic to expect them to continue as a CO.

 

Frankly, $50 per month doesn't seem unreasonable. If dens and the pack are holding meetings there, then you're probably using the building about five times per month (more if different dens meet on differnt nights). During that time, lights are used, water is used, and if this church is like most churches, the thermostat is adjusted to a comfortable level when the building is occupied. You're probably using paper towels and soap in the bathroom, and a bunch of other little things like that. There's probably extra work for the janitor (whether it's a paid position or a volunteer), and the janitor might even need to work extra hours to lock up the building those nights. Maybe $10 per meeting is more than what the actual cost is, but that figure doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. (It's certainly more than that if you figured in a portion of the mortgage, building upkeep, and other fixed expenses, but it doesn't sound like they're even asking for that.)

 

And other factors are probably at work. How many members of the Pack are members of the church? Frankly, especially if most of the pack membership are non-members of the church, many of the comments above reflect a sense of entitlement that isn't really in keeping with "a Scout is Courteous".

 

Perhaps the pack can't afford the $50 a month. Or maybe $50 isn't a reasonable amount in this particular case. But if that's the case, then the leadership ought to say so to the church leadership, and see what can be worked out.

 

But what I'm seeing in many replies is a line in the sand, that it's the church's obligation to do this free of charge, and by God, we're going to make sure they continue to do it free of charge. IMHO, that reflects a sense of entitlement that isn't healthy, and certainly not in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

[Eagle007]

It may be that the CO is in over it's financial head and may need to pass the torch to another entity that can better meet the needs of the pack. These economic times have some in worse shape than others. And until they can get back on their own two feet, they may need to excel in spreading the good word and cut back on extra-curricular activities.

[SR540Beaver]

I know of one CO that while providing space to their units, puts them on a tight schedule. They provide them a scout room, but if they are one minute over the scheduled time, they are charged for the room. Crazy!

[Eagle007]

Tight schedule? Time to look for greener pastures?

[Curious]

I would advise against showing them a copy of the charter agreement. They might realize that they own the unit, including its checkbook.

 

An open and frank conversation would probably be better. And if you really don't think that is viable, then an conversation amongst yourselves about whether you really want a new partner. You could also consider self-chartering, but I would think that would pretty much guarantee that you would be paying a facility fee.

[SeattlePioneer]

I'd been thinking about making a small donation to the Catholic parish that is our Chartered Organization. This thread motivated me to e-mail our Committee Chair and Treasurer suggesting a $25 donation --- the CC e-mailed me back approving the idea if it's approved by the Treasurer.

 

It's a small donation, but we are a small pack. One motivation I have among several is to look for ways to become more a part of the parish community --- only two pack members are also members of the parish.

 

We also have Scout Sunday recognition this Sunday and a Parish service project being planned for later in February.

 

We have invited the Parish lay leader and Parish Priest to our Blue and Gold dinner, and perhaps we'll be able to give them our small donation at that time.

 

 

 

 

[SSScout]

I believe the operant word in the OP's first post is "consider". ...would the Pack CONSIDER paying $50. a month. They did not say "or else". The need is for conversation and understanding, on both sides. If the church has some financial problems, they are not alone in this in this modern world.

I think the Pack did the right thing in helping with the fundraising dinner. That shows good faith. I bet the Cubs had a good time and learned a bit about service to others? And cooking?

True, some COs see Scouting as part of their "youth ministry" whether the American Legion, Lions Club, or Baptist church. And they support their Scouts the best they can. I dare say the church CO in question is wondering how to pay the furnace fuel bill that increased 40% over last year, and the choir robes are looking alittle less wonderful than they did when new 20 years ago. Make more overtures. Be appreciative that they have been a supportive (?) CO these many years, and ask how the Pack can help. "The Pack helps the Cub Scout grow. The Cub Scout gives good will". Here's where the "good will" comes in. Matters not if one or half the Pack are attenders/members of the CO. There is a mutual dependency and responsibility here, Pack to CO, and CO to pack. Each can help the other, if it can only be seen that way.

Other Packs do pay for the use of their facilities. My Pack did, meeting in the local school AP room. Our CO was pretty much hands off, they had no physical facility of their own, but helped in other ways when asked, and not much else. We were expected to pay our way, with popcorn, carwashes and fees.

The present Pack I commish is blessed with a CO that at first was stand offish ("we have a Scout Pack? Really?") , but now is totally behind the Scout units it charters. Scout Sunday, IH at the Troop CoH, and B&G dinner, mention in the church bulletin all the time.

Approach the church leadership with understanding and openness. You both can benefit from the presence of the other. Come with an expectation that the "right thing" will happen, and it likely will, whatever that may be.

[kari_cardi]

Curious said "I would advise against showing them a copy of the charter agreement. They might realize that they own the unit, including its checkbook.

 

An open and frank conversation would probably be better. And if you really don't think that is viable, then an conversation amongst yourselves about whether you really want a new partner. You could also consider self-chartering, but I would think that would pretty much guarantee that you would be paying a facility fee."

 

This. The charter org is asking you to pay them with their own money. I'd tread carefully. Are the boys in your pack members of the church?