Chartered organization requesting fees

[bokris]

We are a cub scout pack of approximately 30 boys. At the beginning of the year, I was approached by a church member stating that the church was having some financial issues. Later our COR approached, asking if we'd consider paying $50 per month to the church for "utility usage." I told him that I'd need to run this by the executive committee, however I'd be much more in favor of joint fundraisers, benefitting both the pack and the church. We had one; a spaghetti dinner and karaoke night, generating $400, and splitting the profits. The church supplied the food, we supplied the Karaoke equipment, and presoldtickets to the event. Everybody won. Today, I was approached again by the COR asking if we were still going to give $50 per month (which I'd run by the committee, and there wwere strong opinions both ways regarding the request. I reminded the COR of the option of joint fundraisers as an alternative, and asked whether the church could still afford to sponsor us. The COR was adament that the church was very willing to continue to charter us, but was still interested in the money as well. How do others feel about this, as our DE is avoiding conversation, and the council continues to refer us back to the DE?

 

[FScouter]

Ask them if they charge the choir rent for use of the choir robes, or the Sunday School kids for use of the classroom Sunday morning.

[ScoutNut]

$600 per year is a chunk out of your budget, can the Pack afford it?

 

How has the relationship with your CO been previously? Have they fully supported the Pack? Are they actively involved with the Pack?

 

How big of a financial hole are they in?

 

Are they requesting money from any other church organizations?

 

Would the COR be willing to consider a smaller amount? If you do any more joint fundraisers, get it in writing first from the COR that the church's half of the profits go toward covering the Pack's rent.

 

Try to sort things out with your CO yourself first. If you can not come to any satisfactory mutual solution, get your DE involved. A sure fire way to get your DE off his backside is to leave him a message that your unit could possibly fold. That impacts your DE's pocketbook and should get his attention.

 

 

[bokris]

Our pack has a peppered history. We're a 26 year old veteran pack that was at the verge of collapse 3.5 years ago when I came in. I recruited leaders to include a full committee and all dens filled with leaders, assistants, and other parent supports. The church has been used to slackness, and when they saw the revitalization, I believe they began taking notice, and now "want a share" of the success at our expense.

 

We could possibly afford it, at the expense of some of our programming, and I'm torn, as a portion of me falls in line with scouts being "fiscally responsible" and "service oriented," but I feel the CO has undertaken a responsibility in continuing to charter us. We can't remove ourselves, as if we back out, we lose our number and veteran status, but the CO continues to verbalize commitment (with a price). The "elders" won't let us in on the budget meeting, feeling we "shouldn't be overly involved in their business," so we are in the dark regarding their fiscal state.

 

Our committee wants to have a major meeting with the "elders," and our treasurer is a bankruptcy attorney who wears his feelings on his sleeve and has no qualms with saying whatever he is feeling at the time, which concerns me, however he feels he must be a part of this meeting.

 

I appreciate the thought of getting an agreement in writing, as this is in my same line of thought, and will have to see how that plays out. The COR seems to be trying to appease both sides of the situation, and approaches me with the sugary voice of passivity, and I continue to question what exactly the purpose of the DE is, as I would have imagined she being an advocate for the pack and liaison between council and the district, however she seems primarily concerned in her bottom line numbers, and not necessarily in the functioning of the units (kind of would think this goes hand in hand, but she's young and inexperienced in the professional world).

 

It has been an interesting dynamic throughout the whole course of events, to say the least...

[ScoutNut]

Again, a big issue I would have is weather or not the church is charging their other church organizations.

 

If you really want to push it, you can get a copy of the Charter Agreement signed by the church stating their responsibilities to your Pack. One of those responsibilities is to provide meeting facilities.

 

If the church is on the verge of financial collapse, you need to know that up front. No pussy-footing around the info. Tell the COR you need some solid information.

 

Do you have a Unit Commissioner? A UC could help you talk to the church Elders, and also get help getting the DE to do her job. If you don't have a UC, talk to your District Commissioner.

[Pack212Scouter]

That's a rough situation. I suppose you could look at paying for facility use as part of your Pack "paying it's way", even though the CO has a responsibility to provide a meeting area. However a much more important situation is what situation your CO is in. Is your CO in danger of financial collapse? IF this is the case, you want to know. The last thing that you want to happen in so show up for a meeting next November with a closed sign on the door. I may be mistaken in this, but if the CO wants to unburden themselves of the Pack, I believe that they can voluntarily give up the unit number to another CO who would be willing to take the Pack in.

[moosetracker]

I would suggest a fundraiser that your troop helps organize and support, but All the money goes to the church.. If all the $400 had gone to the church, you would have been 2/3 to what they were looking for from you.. Call it community service to your CO..

 

$600 from 30 boys is alot to ask for, yearly that would start to hurt.

 

...asked whether the church could still afford to sponsor us. The COR was adament that the church was very willing to continue to charter us but was still interested in the money as well

 

 

This to me means they are not able to sponser you, but they are looking at you as revenue.. It also means that if you did leave they would probably keep the Pack Number, equipment and what is in your bank account.. (I am unsure what equipment you have..)

 

If I were you I would run down your bank account paying for summer camp, and find a new CO..

 

Something to consider in the meantime is consider yourselfs a Pack whose CO can not provide the facilities.. Our town pack is like that, as are others.. Den meetings take place in other places (homes, a different church may open to a single den of your troop if they have a member of the den in the group our den was not run by the school, but we met in the woodshop of the middle school.) Pack meeting is a little harder to find a meeting room big enough but it can be done, our was in the towns old town hall which we paid a flat fee of $15 for use for the year.. We outgrew it and now they are meeting at the elementary school on a school night and seem not to be charged for it.

 

Our CO is the Lions club that can provide the space for the troop once a week due to them being smaller and not having den meeting constantly at different times.. They would be financially supportive with help for boys of low income..

 

Those are the two options I see..

[evmori]

I agree with Frank. Ask them if they are charging other groups for room usage.

[Lisabob]

I'm leery about this notion of you providing financial support to the church. First off, even if you do, your $600 probably won't be enough to save an organization that is truly in trouble enough to milk cub scouts for cash. Second, I'm unsure that it is cool to use scouting to fundraise for outside organizations (at least, I was under the strong understanding that this was prohibited).

 

Some years back my son was in a unit sponsored by a local Lions club. This club had about 4 members, all in their 70s & 80s, and as far as I could ever tell, the only thing the club did was a couple of fundraisers (then they sent the money off to some other group). They were bound and determined that the kids in the troop should fund raise for them, in uniform, in front of local stores. We declined. Eventually, the club folded and the troop found a new CO. Would have happened anyway, even if we did raise $ for them though, I'm certain.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of ways that I think it could be appropriate to provide service to one's CO. I just don't think acting as an ATM is, or should be, one of those. I much prefer the notion that if the church is going to hold its own fund raiser, that your scout unit might assist them with set-up, tear-down, busing tables, etc. rather than you just forking over cash or you fundraising directly on their behalf.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

We can't remove ourselves, as if we back out, we lose our number and veteran status,

 

NOT NECESSARILY!!!!!!!

 

There is a way to change COs and keep both unit number and tenure towards vet status. My old troop changed COs twice in it's now 43 year history. The original CO must be willing to relinquish the unit number, agreeing to essentially starting a "new unit" should they ever want to get involved in Scouting again. They have to sign some paperwork with the council in reference to this.

 

My troop moved from CO1 to CO2 after being forced to move to different meeting rooms almost on a weekly basis (we had the primary room booked in advanced and they kept moving us around), secured storage room taken away from us, new storage room broken into, vandalized, and equipment stolen, and the straw that broke the camel's back, our brand new 2-3 month old fiberglass storage shed used as a dartboard at the church fair causing us to lose most of our camping supplies. Since the church pastor said we no longer fit into the needs of the church, he readily agreed, signed the paperwork, and the unit moved. When a new pastor came in, and got a new unit going, they had to use a different number per the agreement. In fact all trace of my unit's history was removed form the church's history and no one ever knew we were there until I ran into the troop as an adult.

 

We moved from CO2 to CO3 because the new pastor at CO2 had a very strong anti-BSA bias. Relations were not friendly and when she called the police on us for trespassing b/c we were running late cleaning up after an ECOH, we made arrangements to move. Technically we "merged" with an existing troop at CO3, but kept the unit number and tenure. In actuallity, that troop was a brand new troop, 1 year old tops, and was our "NSP" while we worked with their scouts and leaders until they could go off on their own.

 

The merger worked out fine.

 

 

[Stosh]

My troop is sponsored by an American Legion and there are certain "expectations" that are placed on us. 1) We march in the Memorial Day Parade in full uniform. The Girl Scouts do the same thing! 2) We are expected to sell corn at their major fundraiser (Cornfest, so we are totally working 100%) each year. Sun up to sun down for three days. It's hot messy work and we do it in full uniform to show our presence. We provide our own shelter from the hot sun and rain. The Girl Scouts do the cleanup at the bbq chicken booth.

 

We take in hundreds if not thousands of dollars for the American Legion and never say a word about it. When it comes time to recharter, they pay their $20 and all the registrations for the troop, both boy and adult. Then they presented us last year with $600 out of the sky blue and the Commander whispered in my ear, "if you need more, let me know."

 

They know we can't support them with money, but every time they ask for a "favor" we are johnny-on-the-spot with full uniformed scouts to help. We promote American Legion at every opportunity we get. They know we do the popcorn, the wreaths, and that we have about 100% attendance at summer camp and that running a scout troop isn't cheap.

 

It's time for the troop to sit down with the church board and offer up their services for the congregation that doesn't require $$'s. Maybe the scouts would take on coffee fellowship on Sunday morning. Maybe they would help out at the annual church dinner (in full uniform), usher on more than Scout Sunday services, collect food for the food pantry and give the credit to the congregation, etc. so that they have a visible presence at the church to show the members there that they are a vital part of the church's mission and not just an expense on the church budget report at the annual meeting. Are you required to do this by the CO Charter? No, but what's the mission and purpose of BSA in the first place? "Help other people at all times." If the church is struggling, roll up your sleeves and do something about it besides run to the DE and complain.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC]

From the BSA Charter Agreement:

 

Provide adequate facilities for the Scouting unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.

 

Get your Unit Commissioner and your District Executive involved, today. It's time for a business meeting between the IH, COR, CC, SM, DE, and UC. Notice I said business meeting, not friendly cup of coffee. ETA: I see the part about your DE avoiding. Call your District Commissioner. Tell him to get the DE off his 4th point of contact.

 

As Stosh says, it's right for a Chartered Partner to ask for service from its units. It's right to ask for events which dovetail into the program. Asking for rent/utilities, IMO, is outside that set of right and proper requests.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Eagle007]

It's either time to have that business meeting or time to find another CO. The CO and the troop should have a mutual respect for each other and understanding with each other. At the same time this floundering CO is the sponsor ( provider of the meeting place ) and has no right to demand financial payment for anything in order to help pull itself out of the red.

 

Maybe it's just me but when an organization looks to become a CO do they have no clue as to the responsibilities of providing support to the troop or pack and not the other way around? If not, why even consider being a CO at all? It sounds like getting the cart before the horse.

[oldisnewagain1]

I agree with Eagle92, you don't have to lose your number and veteran status. Our troop recently had to change CO because of the closing of the church we were in and had no problem with council switching to a new CO.

 

If I was in your shoes I would quietly make some inquires about other locations. When you have something in line, approach the church explaining that the pack does not want to be a finical burden on the church and you can move the pack to a new CO if that would help ease the burden. Now my guess is the church will not want to lose the pack and there will be no more talk of "usage fees". Otherwise, you have already lined up a new location.

[Abel Magwitch]

Perhaps you could move your pack to a public school where the utilities are paid for by tax dollars. I know that is happening in my council. Council executives have no interest in churches anymore. Executives have even started moving units into county assisted housing complexes because there are county tax dollars that can be tapped into. (yep, an actual executive said this).

 

Or perhaps some of the council's fos dollars could be used to support your sponsor church.