A Fair Price.

[Eamonn]

I have never served on the Council Camping Committee.

I do know most of the people who do serve.

They are all nice people who do have the best interests of the Scouts at heart.

The Council Camping Committee in our Council isn't very big.

There is a Chair. Four District Camping Chairs and one fellow who looks High Adventure.Along with a OA youth member.

Over the years there have been improvements made to the camps.

Some that are easy to see: New showers, buildings and a lake.

Some that are not so easy to see but have cost a lot of money and a lot of hard work. Things like having the swimming pool sand-blasted and new water lines put in.

After times passes it becomes easy not to see the improvements and I know that I could say that the camp hasn't changed that much since I first went there in 1977 as an International Camp Counselor.

I don't remember what the camp fee was back in 1977, but when I brought a group of English Scouts over in 1981 even with the Out Of Council Surcharge we paid $25.00 a head.

I think this year the cost is about $300.00 a head.

There are a couple of guys on the Council Camping Committee that have served on that committee for almost that long.

Looking at the Committee as an outsider, for a very long time it seemed to me that many of its members had a "Them and Us" idea of working. Them being he Council and Us being the Committee members representing the campers.

I don't think the Committee ever really looked at any numbers or really knew what the cost of running the camp was.

The District Camping Chairs. Would return to their Districts very proud, reporting that camp hadn't gone up or that the increase in the camp fee was only $5.00.

To be fair to these guys, I should add that trying to find out the true cost of the camp was next to impossible. The accounting that was (Is?) used was a real mess. Camp Staff salary was bundled up with the number that was used for the entire Council Staff salary. There was no break down of costs. The electric number used was the number for both camps along with the Service Center. It was a real mess.

Things came to a head about ten years ago.

I'm not sure exactly what happened. I think it was a mix of things that just seemed to all line up all at one time.

A new building ran way over budget, the SE wasn't very good with money and wasn't being honest with the Board and this came to light.

Out of no where all of a sudden we (The Council Executive Board) were faced with the fact that we we over $250,000 in the red.

The easy way out was to sell the primitive camp which is so primitive that it doesn't get a lot of use and other than a new Campmaster building hasn't been improved since it donated to the Council back in the 1960's.

Some of us seen this as a bad move, being that the Council Summer Camp is in a State Park and there is always a chance that the State might opt to not renew our lease.

As you might imagine there were a lot of meetings and at times things got heated.

I got upset because the people who were on the Board at the time for the most part had never been to the camp that they were deciding on.

The Camp was saved, by some financial juggling.

But there was a new dawn of financial responsibility and accountability.

Summer Camp and the cost was the first to be looked at.

The following year Summer Camp seen the biggest increase ever.

Along with changes that were supposed to either save money or make what was being spent more transparent.

When people said anything about the cost, the standard answer seemed to be to take a look at what others were charging. Others being the YMCA, church camps and the like.

The fact that Scout and Scout's families supported the Council with FOS and popcorn sales seemed to be cast aside and never mentioned.

 

I think that I'm very fortunate, while I'm not wealthy. I can afford most of the things that I want to do or that my family might want to do. I also only have one child.

The costs involved in Scouts and Scouting have never really been an obstacle.

I have however at times thought that some things were just over priced.

Someone mentioned paying $3,000 to attend the Jamboree.

$3,000 is a lot of money. I don't know if it is a fair price or not? Our guys paid $1,800. A lot less than the $3,000. But we live about a four hour drive from the site. Leave and arrive the same day and come home on the day we depart. To me that just doesn't seem like a fair price.

I paid it because that was what they charged.

I had planned on both my son and I attending the World Jamboree in the UK.

I could afford the $11,000 that it would have cost.

I however failed to see why it cost so much?

I just couldn't bring myself to spend that amount of money on something that so was overpriced. So we didn't attend.

Maybe "Rip Off" Might be a little too strong a term to use?

But more and more it seems that people are questioning the cost of everything, even Scouting events.

No one expects a free ride, but everyone expects to only pay what is a fair price.

Ea.

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally, I've always been interested in frugal, low cost Scoutings programs. Based on that value, I've never been in a unit that attended a National Jamboree, Philomont or other high end programs. That's not to say I'm opposed to such programs, they haven't been things units I've been a part of have done, and I didn't raise them as program goals.

 

Based on that, my primary area of concern in your post is keeping Scout Summer Camps available and affordable.

 

 

Our council and a neighboring council has sold off camps deemed marginal over the decades. These have mostly been relatively lightly developed camps that are in suburban areas.

 

We are left with two main council camps that are a fifty mile drive from my area, farther than a lot of families, Cub Scout in particular want to drive.

 

Last year my Cub Scout Pack scheduled a Pack Overnight Camp at one of those camps, and had to cancel it when only one parent and two Cub Scouts actually signed up to attend. Other families decided it was too far to drive.

 

There would have been some benefit to keeping one of those two camps that were sold off. On the other hand, there is a nice Lion's Club camp available for use at no charge another ten miles farther away which could be used.

 

Decisions on property are difficult, and controversial. Every time the council sells off property, a coalition of Scouters with emotional attachments and environmental groups raise a ruckus about it. Personally, I have no sympathy at all for environmentalists intervening in such decisions.

 

Good financial management has a lot of benefits, including avoiding crises that might cause camps to be sold. Good long term planning on what kind of camps are needed is also important. In my view, decisions on camps should be made based on the needs of Scouts and the Scouting program. We are here to serve boys and youth, not hang on to real estate.

 

 

[Eagle92]

I know in my neck of the woods, summer camp price is now $235 up 'till May 15th, then $255 with the late fee.

 

Pamlico Sea Base is a minumum of $295, can't go into details as the cost varies by program.

 

But from expereince the cost of camp was based upon summer expenses. This year they did somethign a little different. In addition to the cost to run camp, they added a supply fee into the equation that veraged what scouts spend for various program supplies ( i.e. craft supplies, practice skeet shooting supplies, etc(this was based upon surveys from the SM if memory serves) so that one fee covers EVERYTHING needed to take classes. Seems real popular.

 

 

Now jambo has lots of expenses. I'd hate to see the bill for that.

 

As for WSJ, EMB stated, and in doign some research got it confirmed, that the WSJ fee is graduated so that those in 1st world nations pay more than those in 3rd world nations. Kinds like our progressive tax system.

[Eagle92]

SP,

 

The most emotional thingt for scouts and leaders is the selling of a council camp, even if it is for the best. I know folks were still upset that my council sold its camp that has a few hundred acres, for a camp that had over 1600 acres, 30 years after the fact! Council had to sell it b/c of encroaching surburbia (camp was surounded).

 

Next most emotional thing is tree harvesting at a camp. sometimes it IS needed. Again camp growing up had an infestation, and forestry said cut this many trees or we will eventually lose all of them. Folks were not happy, but the council was honest, showed the infestation reports, and showed where the money was going from the harvesting: back into camp. So folks were OK with it.

 

But one of our council camps does need some harvesting as we need to clear some areas for more parking and activities (kinda hard to pack 600+ Cubs and Family members in a camp desigend for boy scout troops and their trailers), as well as fire safety. I know if we get a lightening strike the are will probably go up.

[Twocubdad]

I've never understood the byzantine accounting used for summer camps. It seems no one really knows what it really costs to run camp. Summer camp fees seem based on the cost of the summer camp program -- staff, material, food, etc. But then maintenance gets mixed in one budget, ranger salary into another, capital improvements another. And all scrambled around to the point that no one can say how the costs are really allocated.

 

I understand the camps are operated year-round and that summer camp is in sessionly only six weeks. Any given weekend through the year we have several troops using the camp. But it is disingenuous to allocate the overhead costs of several troops camping in the woods the same as a week of summer camp. In the first place, the marginal cost of those troops is close to zero. Maybe they run the water or leave some trash in the dumpster. But they're not using the dining hall, the administrative building, the health lodge, or the adult staff cabins. Use of the program areas is minimal. Does it really cost anything for a troop to meet under a shelter for instruction time?

 

It seems to me the real cost of a week at summer camp would be a handy number to have. If nothing else, it would be a good tool to tell folks that their $240 fee only covers half the real cost of camp and the rest is covered by FOS and popcorn. Falsely telling folks summer camp is self-supporting leaves them scratching their heads when the FOS presenter tells them their contribution goes to support camp. Which is it?

 

My suspicion is the reason for the subterfuge is -- like everything -- political. If the council showed the true extent to which Boy Scout summer camp is underwritten, everyone in all the other programs would howl, and rightly so. I bet the true subsidy would be shocking, if known.

 

When I ran day camp, like all programs, we were required to show a profit. Why? Well, we had to cover the overhead of the camps. No, our camp was held at a city park and we paid the fee out of our budget. Well, then we had to cover the staff time for the folks at the office who handled registration for us. HECK NO, they don't touch our registration. Any time the staff got involved with our registration they fouled it up. But we have to pay for ouR DE's time at camp. For three years we never saw our DE (he worked at Boy Scout camp) and he showed up he cost us money in extra coffee and doughnuts.

 

Why are Cub Scout programs profit centers when the summer camp is run through a huge subsidy? Especially when the lions share of FOS and popcorn sales can be tracked by to the Cubbies?

[BrotherhoodWWW]

SP I'm confused about what you are saying. Compared to other councils around you you are small geographically. Your Council has 4 camps that I can identify. Parsons is closer to Seattle than Scout-a-Vista is to Yakima. My Council is charging $255 per spot these days and it must be fair given all the out of council troops we have attending. I think we offer a bargain when compared to other week long camps aimed at kids. I see the need to keep it affordable. I also see that the professional staff keeps saying that there is not enough money to pay youth staff a fair wage. Perhaps if we dramatically raised the cost, increased the availability of camperships and started paying the youth staff a fair wage many of our summer camp problems would go away.

[Eamonn]

Twocubdad

When it comes to the BSA budgets and financial statements that I've seen. They remind me very much of how OJ used to tidy up his room.- Not sure where something goes? Just stick it wherever it seems it might fit!

One year when I was signing off on the District budgets for the coming year I went over the statements from the previous year. Even the stuff that should have been easy to decipher was wrong. There was one showing that we'd lost a large amount of money on Webelos Woods the previous year when we hadn't ran Webelos Woods for three years.

Cub Scout Day Camp had been charged $1,500 for a water line? What that was ? No one seemed to know.

It was such a mess with so many mistakes that I faxed 39 pages to the Council Treasurer.

I never did sign off on the budgets for that year.

No one seemed to notice or care.

Life shouldn't be that hard.

As volunteers, especially as volunteers that are volunteering to run events asking and having clear, honest and easy to understand information should just be a given.

I'm OK with me donating some of my hard earned cash to something which I do believe does good. I however now refuse to do FOS presentations because I don't believe in the material and the numbers that are used.

All of us know that a Council needs money. Many of us are willing to do what we see as our bit, but when we suspect that there is something fishy going on. - Even if there isn't. We tend to lose heart and really wonder if the good we hope we are doing, is indeed good?

 

I'm not sure what fix is available?

But I'd like to see SE's with more training in money management and for them to play a more active role of bringing money into the Councils that employ them.

If this means that we have to rethink the roles that our DE's play, having them not be involved in program and learning more about fund raising, grant writing and dealing with business leaders. Then I'm all for it! - I don't think we need pay someone $40,000. a year to be at a Boy Scout Camp or run around looking for a Pinewood Derby track. We have volunteers to look after that type of stuff or failing that, there are lots of people who would do it for a lot less.

Ea.

[BadenP]

I agree with Eamonns two posts on what could be termed as fiscal mismanagement by councils, regional, and national for all of their events. Over the years I have watched fees get raised at an alarming rate, way beyond the increase in program costs, and at the same time watch camp after camp be sold to help pay for this fiscal mismanagement by the so called scouting professionals, all the way up to the CSE. It is not like the volunteers and scouts are getting any more value for their money, in most cases it is a whole lot less. At the rate they are going the BSA program will eventually price itself out of exsistence. That is what happens in the business world, a company starts off strong then starts cutting back on the quality of their product and raises their prices, they lose their patronage and go under in our free market economy. What makes the BSA think it is immune from the same thing happening to them.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Eagle92]

BP,

 

My council must be bucking the trend. Then again we have a SE who is pro program, and pro camping. He pushed for a CS outdoor committee after years of neglect. He pushed for council to do CS family campouts on the council level and got them. He pushed for all 6 council camps to get work done, is encouraging units to help , and got the OA to move an Ordeal form the main camp, to the one that needed the most work.

 

He also is pushing to OA to do a better job of camp promos, and raising money for camperships as some are now available to Cubs to go to day camp and resident camp.

 

Now we got to keep him from leaving or retiring

[Alabama Scouter]

I agree, a fair price. One program should not be overcharged to make up for a shortfall in another. But to get there, each program has to pay for itself. Those that can't and need to be retained get the lions share of FOS money. It's sort of a tax on those that want to and have the means, get charged more to support others. What is discouraging about it is, it cuts out those that WANT TO but don't have the means. They are the ones that are getting hurt the most.

[packsaddle]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Karl Marx

[perdidochas]

When you look at scout camp vs. other summer programs, its still a bargain at $300 a head.

 

When my oldest went to summer camp last year, we sent our youngest (a year younger) to a CSI summer day camp at a local university. It cost $250 a week, and we had to pack a lunch, as well as drive him to and fro every day.