Leaders not following the Scout Law & Oath

[Hawkrod]

I appreciate you guys understanding where I am coming from. I think too many get caught up in the why of a question and too often it really is not important. The question was asked and an answer is probably available. This was an easy one and dovetails nicely in what others have said. You do the right thing because it is the Scout way and take it up the chain of command. As I noted, in this case the COR of your unit takes it to the key 3 or the Scouting Executive. Document what you can, provide them with any additional contacts and let them investigate. If it is legitimate it will be dealt with.

 

I came here and experienced a very similar situation. I do think that I was mistaken on one issue (but it was the how, not the why which the person in charge has since explained to me) but had so much other documentation that it was not an issue. The issue for me is "what do you do with it?". Even though I am a trained COR and have been doing this for a while, I still was not entirely clear on what to do.

 

This issue has led me to a new understanding of my abilities and also an education to other local COR's who, like me, did a lot of doing what we were told. Now that I know how to handle some types of difficult situations I want to make sure that others find out as well. I think many people find a place like this because they are out there in the world working hard and Googling. I think that getting the answers layed out in laymans terms can help a lot of people resolve issues easier and faster.

 

In my situation, it was difficult and I burned a few bridges that I hated to burn but as a COR it was my responsibility to carry the issue of the membership forward, for me it was not personal but it was my job to deal with it aside from any personal feelings. At the time, my DE told me I had to but he really didn't tell me what to expect or how it would be handled. What ended up happening is a lot of false accusations were made against us to deflect the real issues and the other party tried to make it personal. It was never personal so it was very easy to prove the issues false. In the end we got what we asked for and even though I took a personal hit, the members of my unit are happy with the results. At this point, I don't really care why the results happened the way they did, I only care that it was resolved and the members under me breathe a sigh of relief.

[ScoutNut]

If posters don't really want feedback, and just want to vent, and ask rhetorical questions, they need to state that up front. General answers to a general question will not always help the specific problem.

 

Pack195 stated that a leader in his district, not unit, stole something. He never said that what was stolen had anything to do with Scouting, other than it caused some boys to quit. Having Pack195 go to his units COR will not accomplish anything if it was not stolen from his unit. One Charter Organization has no say in what another Charter Organization, or a person/organization/business outside of scouting, does.

 

Pack195 states that when he "steps up to tell the truth everyone turns against me".

 

Stealing is a crime. If someone is a witness to a crime, or has PROOF of who committed a crime, they should go to the police, tell them, and let the police handle it. People will not usually "turn against" someone who has proof.

 

If you tell other people that a specific person is a thief, but have no proof to back up this allegation, you should not be surprised if the people you tell this story to 1) do not believe you, and 2) are upset with you for spreading what is basically a nasty rumor.

 

Pack195 stated that "even the district chairman tried to kick me out of scouting". First of all, if you are a unit Scouter, kicking you out of Scouting is up to your Charter Organization, not the District Chairman. If you have proof of, or personally witnessed a person commit a crime, why are you going to the District Chairman instead of the police? If you have no proof, why are you surprised the District Chairman got upset when you started spreading unsubstantiated rumors?

 

If you do have proof, and folks are still turning against you, and trying to kick you out, then I do not know what to tell you as there must be a lot more going on that I have no clue about. Maybe a conspiracy?

 

As for the question - "how do you follow the scout law and oath and expect the other leaders to do the same, and when they dont what do you do ?"

 

You are not the Scout Oath and Law police for other adults. You can not be everyone's conscience. You simply make sure you follow the Scout Oath and Law as best as you can. By doing that you set a good example for both youth and adults.

(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[evmori]

I understand where you are coming from but my point is simply that the facts of the allegations don't matter to answer the question asked.

 

Without the facts, how can we, or anyone for that fact, even attempt to answer the question without making a ton of assumptions?

[Beavah]

Yah, Hawkrod, when yeh ask a group of people for advice, that's what you're goin' to get, eh? Advice.

 

Not necessarily what yeh want to hear. Not necessarily support. Not necessarily a direct answer to a (very loaded) question.

 

Most of us, if a lad were to come to us and say "My doohicky was stolen!" would ask more questions. Where did yeh last see it? Why do you think it was stolen? That's because we have experience, eh? We know that more than half the times a young fellow comes with such a story his doohicky is buried in his pack or was left behind somewhere by him. So we ask more questions so that we can help him resolve the real underlying issue, even though we're not respondin' directly.

 

Lots of us with experience hear da OP's post in the same way, eh? We care, but we're lookin' for the underlying story so we can really help. Yeh see, claiming that other boys left scouting because of this "theft" is what is called hearsay, eh? And it's so unreliable that it's not admissible as testimony or evidence. So we actually don't really know why other boys may have left. Against that, we have evidence that all of the other people who have heard the allegations have rejected them, and considered them inappropriate enough to pursue action against the original poster's membership in Scouting.

 

So without additional information, da best advice is to ask for more information while encouragin' the person not to (continue to) put themselves in a position for which they may suffer serious consequences. To my mind, that shows kindness to and caring for the poster, eh? Not attacking.

 

What would be hurtful and bad advice is to tell the poster to run off and call the SE and the cops without more information, and thereby have him/her put their scouting membership or standing in the community in further jeopardy, or expose them to recovery for the damages they inflict on someone else.

 

Often da best advice is not the advice you want to hear.

 

Now, with more information, we might be able to give better guidance, eh? Until then, we're left doin' the best with what we've got.

 

Beavah

[Hawkrod]

Sorry Beavah, I just see your entire post as diversion.

 

Your example of a Scout coming to you saying something was stolen is a horrible example as it isn't the same thing at all. You are responsible for the youth and it is your job to deal with it. This is an adult who wants to know how to handle something and the two scenarios are so vastly different that you can't compare them.

 

Also note that you very seriously twisted what I wrote about how to handle it because I did not tell the poster to run off and call the SE and the cops without more information. I think it is repulsive to twist what I wrote that way. I said if a crime was being committed you call the police, are you really saying that is wrong? Sorry but I have to question if you slept at the Holiday Inn 'cause I don't think so. How about a YP issue? You are required to call the SE and you make that sound wrong as well. Are you really of the belief that you can devine enough info to determine if a member should ignore BSA policy? You are clearly saying that doing so would be less hurtful.

 

Sorry but your twisting and writhing will not change the answer to the facts. There is nothing you need to know bout the situation that could make my responses wrong in any way and all I see is a bunch of double talk that ignores what I wrote and what the OP would do in the circumstances presented.

[Scoutfish]

Yeas, details DO matter. Details are the key to many, many things.

 

The OP says: "In my district we have a leader who has stolen and because of her action 3 boys have dropped out of scouting."

 

Guess what, we had the exact same thing happen in our pack!

 

Details:

 

1) The two boys and they were brothers.

 

2) The accusor was the boys mom.

 

3) The "stolen" money was the money the boys earned in their scout accounts for selling popcorn.

 

4) It was considered "stolen" by the mom and boys because they thought the pack was going to write them a check, which they planned on cashing and spending at TOYS-R-US and Wal-Mart.

 

5) Before selling popcorn, we explained just like we do every year, that the 20% scouts earn is put into a scount account and can be used for scout related stuff like camping fees, books, dues, council camp, hats, camping equipment bought at scout shop, etc......

 

6) Mom and scouts thought that they should be the exception to a LONG TIME RULE that every other single scout was held to.

 

 

But let me take the details away and restate the issue we had:

 

Mom is mad that treasurer stole money. 2 scouts also mad and quit. Everybody took treasuere's side and was "against" mom for standing up and saying treasurer stole money.

 

WOW! Without details:

 

1) The stories are eeirily similar.

2) You would be 99% likely to give the wrong advice about how mom should talk to COR and IH about the theif amongst us!

 

Simply put...details are the difference between night and day!

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, like Scoutfish I have dealt with many a parent who believed money was "stolen" when non-refundable deposits were not returned or when fundraising dollars weren't passed along to another unit or when dues or registration were not refunded to da parents when a boy withdrew. And yep, odds sre they leave scouting in a huff, sayin' bad things about scouting volunteers. Those to me are the a same sort of thing as the young lad whose doohickey is "stolen." But if others don't see da comparison, I understand. Neither it nor I am perfect.

 

Hawkrod, I wasn't referring to anything you posted at all, eh? I read the whole thread without particularly lookin' at who wrote what. So if yeh thought I was making personal reference to you, I apologize. I was thinking about some of da positions expressed across several posts, and then I wrote what I thought, eh? I expressed my thoughts about da actions I wrote about. Not about other posters. Not about da actions other posters proposed. My thoughts, about what I wrote. It's a group discussion, eh? There's no other way to write. If I had wanted to do a two-way, I would have said "I disagree with Hawkrod's position because...". Instead I just offered my own thoughts based on readin' a dozen different posts.

 

Now, Hawkrod, I will respond directly to your last post here, eh? I really didn't understand your second paragraph at all. I'm not sure where YP and BSA policy come in or how yeh got that out of anything I wrote. Seems like "twisting" to me, eh? . But since yeh seem to want direct answers to questions:

 

If a crime is being committed, is it wrong to call the police? It depends. Sometimes yeh don't have standing to file a complaint. Other times, like if yeh catch one of your scouts shoplifting a candy bar at a rest stop, prudence suggests a different course of action.

 

No, I have not slept in a Holiday Inn Express.

 

Yes, there are some cases of suspected child abuse where, depending on state law, I would advise someone to only notify CPS and not contact the Scout Executive. I think I've been clear on that in many posts on da subject; the generic national BSA training is not adequate for giving specific advise in each jurisdiction for each case. Da folks I've spoken with at national agree with me, BTW.

 

Now, let me respond more personally to yeh, Hawkrod. I really don't mind that yeh misinterpreted or twisted my words and intent. It happens, eh? That's life and humanity. It doesn't repulse or upset me at all. We all read from our own perspectives, and our own experience and backgrounds. And sharing those differences is how we learn. You assume that this poster is just like you and what you faced, eh? Might or might not be true. I hear yeh when you worry that maybe when someone comes with a problem and we are cautious or try to look at things from all kinds of different angles, that may be off-putting if the person is looking for affirmation or a simple answer. I just don't think that if you're looking for affirmation or a simple answer that yeh bring a question to a few thousand people who don't know yeh and who have vastly different experiences.

 

I think you'll be happier with da forums if yeh realize that, try not to take what is a general discussion personally, and be understandin' if others from a different perspective offer different advice. Be kind to 'em, eh? Even if they didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

Beavah

[moosetracker]

I missed how the whole Holiday Inn express reference started up..

 

Hawkrod - I myself got myself into hot water accusing someone of stealing, but it got all miscommunicated and was a big mess.

 

Had to do with popcorn too, and the first yeare we were in the troop. My son sold so much popcorn. I got a glance at the spread sheet and it was not the correct amount. I also knew the amounts of other kids and they were also not accurate (all too low).. I went to the committee chair & treasurer (who togeather produced the spreadsheet) and I got a response they didn't know why the amount was the way it was.

 

So I emailed the COR stating that something was wrong and if these two people (who I trusted totally) had no idea where the amounts came from someone had tampered with the totals..

 

Email went to the CC and the next thing I knew I had him hauling me to a private conversation where he yelled at me because he thought I was accusing him of stealing..

 

I told him my problem was not with him, but with his response that he did not know why the money was the way it was.. Well I never did understand his spreadsheet, but money was split up all over the place and he understood it, and somewhere in it was the full amount..

 

My problem I think was I asked him when he didn't want to deal with sitting down with me and explaining it, but his response did nothing to relax me, it got me very worried and sent me to suspect that there was someone who should not be involved finding a way to manipulate the money.

 

How he got from my email to the COR which had been sent to him that I was accusing him, I did not know, because I thought it was very clear my alarm was in the fact that he nor the treasurer were not involved. I was trying to figure out who was the culprit, and figure out how to solve the problem.

 

Anyway it ended up with the only thing I could do to settle the whole problem was to volunteerily make a public appology to him at the next committee meeting.

 

Mis-understanding regarding money is a very common situation..

[Scoutfish]

The original post also says a leader within the district. So I gather that the leader is in a completely seperate unit from the original poster.

 

So...it's not internal to the OIP's unit.

 

But what else? Did a parent - who might also be a friend of the OP tell the OP that someting was amiss? Did/does the OP have any first hand or direct contact knowledge of what is going on?

Was it something within scouting or outside of scouting.

 

And that does make a BIG difference. I mistakenly accuse of of stealing money because ( due to stated policy) you do not refund camp money, but transfer it instead...then I just look stupid.

 

I accuse you of stealing because somebody says that their best friend's 3rd cousin's step dad twice removes is embezzling from a company that he only 49% owns...well, you might want to just avoid the whole thing instead of causing yourself embarassment and a possible slander lawsuit.

 

So you stand up and say:" Hey, this guy/gal stole something!" And everybody give you a hard time. There is alot more too this than we are able to give any worthwhile advice at all for.

 

Details, details, details.

 

 

Who stole what ( no names - slander thing okay) , where did they steal if from, and how do you know any of this:

 

If it is inside scouting. If it's outside scouting, let it go or talk to the police.

[Twocubdad]

I'll be the one to mention the 800-pound gorilla in the thread--

 

I read the opening post here and my first thought was, "nutjob."

 

Pack195, if you're still reading, my apologies if I have mis-characterized you or your post. You may be a very nice, intelligent, rational person, but after almost 10 years reading posts here, one develops a sense of these things. Perhaps you're were in a hurry when you posted here, or perhaps you've become accustomed to texting and using very abbreviated descriptions.

 

But what I read was a short, unsubstantiated accusation against another Scout leader and a quick shift to victimhood. That the district chairman is involved and has sided "against" you puts me "on guard" too.

 

If you care to take a little more time and post a more thoughtful description of your problem, I'm sure you will get everone's best and unvarnished advice.

 

Again, if I have offended you, my apologies, but I believe we owe the truth.

 

[BadenP]

Hawk

What I see you doing is everytime someone gives you an answer you don't like you accuse them of treating you unscoutlike and insulting you. Instead of whining for no good reason phrase your questions in a way that you get to the heart of what you are asking, instead of droning on and on over nothing. As another poster has already stated you are not the moral compass for others on this forum, so quit trying to be.

[Hawkrod]

I apologize to all, I am not trying to be a moral compass, I simply and truly believe that some of these questions can be answered without the drama.

 

I really believe the popcorn examples above prove my point. Poeple thought that they were ripped off and got upset. The CC did not solve the problem. If a UC or a COR (assuming they are active) had gotten involved at the right point these problems could have been diffused. Obviously the one COR handled it poorly and that is unfortunate but following the appropriate line can often resolve problems faster and easier on all, I think that the issue is that so many do not understand what that line is (and I have only known for a month myself).

 

If I had gotten the answer when I first posted instead of asking for more details and dragging it out, I would have gone to the right people first and the problem would have been resolved quickly but instead it took several days and I participated in something that I did not need to. I did get my problem resolved once I knew how it was supposed to be handled and maybe I am too naive but I think that it would help a lot of people who are struggling to see some basic answers.

 

I wrote "What to do in this type of situation is specific and unless criminal activity is actively occuring and the police need to be called now, the response will still be the same" to which Beavah responded "If a crime is being committed, is it wrong to call the police? It depends. Sometimes yeh don't have standing to file a complaint. Other times, like if yeh catch one of your scouts shoplifting a candy bar at a rest stop, prudence suggests a different course of action." but we are not talking about youth, we are talking about adults and I am sorry, if a crime is actively being committed, I do believe you should call the police. It does not matter if you have "standing".

 

I also made note of the YP issue because it is a requirement. I did not say that contacting the SE was all you should do, I said that you needed to do it in a YP situation. I have been there and I have had to do it. I did call CPS first and then the SE, it was not a fund day but it improved somebodies life.

 

Beyond those two main areas the rest of what I am trying to say is that there are people who's job it is to handle these things and either resolve them or pass them on to those that can. I really can't understand why it matters if this person really stole anything or if it is a missunderstanding because I think talking about it here is sometimes less likely to resolve it than addressing it at the local level. If you address it locally and find out that it was a misunderstanding (which seems to be common) then those people in charge of the program will understand that they have failed to communicate the process in a way that the membership can comprehend.

 

From my point of view, I do see it as a very black and white issue. The question was "How do you follow the scout law and oath and expect the other leaders to do the same, and when they dont what do you do?" For me that was a very basic two part question. The first part was answered extremely well by clemlaw who wrote "You just do it. The Scout Law is: "A Scout is Trustworthy; A Scout is Loyal, etc." It is not "A Scout is Trustworthy, as long as everyone else is Trustworthy; A Scout is Loyal, as long as everyone else is Loyal, etc."

 

As for what you do when they don't, the answer is still the same. You continue to follow these principles. If you have witnessed actual criminal activity (such as a leader who has stolen), then you should call the cops."

 

The second part is where I had a problem. I really think that the chain of command is the right thing to suggest. I am not saying you can't or shouldn't ask for more info but rather offer the answer to the question along with your inquiry. Unfortunately too many Scouter's do not actually know or understand the structure and I think that explaining it to them can help solve a lot of issues quickly. It's my opinion and I am sorry that I am so hard headed about it but I just went through it and wound is very fresh.

[Scoutfish]

"If I had gotten the answer when I first posted instead of asking for more details and dragging it out,....."

 

Her'sa thought for you to consider: If you gave the details to start with, you would have gotten a GREAT answer to start with and it wouldn't have drug out?

 

So you realize that a chain of command answer was the thing you needed. Had you given more details, you would have gotten that answer much, much sooner.

 

Kinda like going to a garage and telling the mechanic your car isn't workimng right. If he asks you what's wrong, and all you say is that it's broke....he has no ida whatsoever where to even begin. But if you tell him it cranks up, runds good until you put it into drive...he will start checking vacuum/ vacuum line problems, or idle sensors.

 

Tell him to start wit that it cranks and runs fine, but cuts off when you put it into gear and he will come up with theories right then. Just mulling around and repeating that the car is just broke doesn't tell him anything.

 

Now, you said the popcorn story was exactly what you were talking about.

 

Really? Because in the popcorn story, simply saying a treasurer stole mosney soundslike a bad treasurer. But explaining that a mom had didn't like the rules and her sons quit over it actually turns things around 180 degrees about what is really going on.

 

No, you don't have to explain every single minute of every meeting since the involved person joined scout 5 years ago, Doesn't mstter what color car they drive, their shoe size or style of underwear that they wear.

 

But what was stolen, where and how you know about it mean everything.

 

Did you personally witness somebody stealing from a cash box they were not authorized to even touch?

 

Or did a "since high school" friend tell you that "Mr.A" stole something at their campout , and two scouts quit. Meaning you are getting a second or third hand story of which you cannot honestly verify as being true or accurate.

 

No, we don't need actual names or addresse, but you gotta give some details.

[moosetracker]

Yes, but Hawkrod, the details would have decided the chain of command.. Without it, you can not figure out the chain of command.

 

 

If I saw a scouter steal from my unit, I would get the CC & COR involved.

 

If I saw a scouter steal from the district hike-a-thon I might start with the DE

 

If I saw a scouter steal from the Council camp funds or the council store, then I might start with the program director or the SE..

 

If I saw a scouter stealing sterios and TV's out of Best Buy.. I would start with the police.

 

It sounds like you finally got the answer you needed from the forum.. But, obviously it took details to get someone to finally give you the answer you needed.. Without the details, it just didn't click with people the right answer to give you and you might have gotten some wrong answers by people making assumptions and coming up with answers based on them.. Or you may have gotten wrong answers by people who "thought" they knew the right answer but did not..

 

Not all of us can be right all the time. You learn more & more as you make statements on these forums and someone else comes along and points out rule #52 or form # 83 that proves that you are totally incorrect.. Then when you figure that out those at National change all the rules & regs around, and the next month you post about something that "now" you think you know, to be told you are wrong again.. Little by little you get something right over time.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Beavah]

we are talking about adults and I am sorry, if a crime is actively being committed, I do believe you should call the police. It does not matter if you have "standing"

 

It does to the police.

 

What we're talkin' about here is not a crime being "actively" committed as in a bank robbery in progress. We're talkin' about someone who may have stolen something from someone else. It's up to the person who has been stolen from to file that complaint, eh? If I say to the police that Joe robbed my neighbor but my neighbor says he hasn't been robbed, then not only have I wasted the time of law enforcement I've slandered Joe.

 

So here we have a district leader who the OP thinks has stolen something (presumably from the district), but the district officials don't think anything has been stolen. That's just like mythical "Joe", eh?

 

In order to give a helpful answer, and in order to give a "correct" answer, it is necessary to know more. In the meantime, it's worthwhile to caution the person about making public accusations.

 

Da YP issue is similar, eh? The real, proper, best advice answer depends on da circumstances and the laws of the jurisdiction in which you reside. Are yeh talkin' about child abuse (i.e. abuse of their own child by a parent or guardian) outside of scouting? Are yeh talkin' about physical abuse within a scouting context? Are yeh talking about reasonable suspicion? Or about witnessed/reported abuse? Are we talkin' about sexual battery, or about sending the boy to bed without supper?

 

Yeh see, reporting to the SE is only required for physical abuse within a scouting context, and even there yeh balance it with da CO's primary interest in da case of unit scouting. All da other stuff has different answers which don't include reportin' to the SE.

 

Then there's the case of the Scoutmaster who was left alone at the meeting hall because the parents never showed to pick the kid up, so he drove the boy home. A technical YP violation, where calling the cops, calling the SE, calling CPS, and calling the CO are all inappropriate. At most, someone should chat with da SM about the best ways for the unit to handle such things in the future.

 

So yeh see, even for somethin' as reasonably black-and-white as YP issues, if yeh want a real answer or the best advice, like moosetracker says, yeh need to explain the context.

 

And anybody who just gives yeh an answer without asking for the details is not being Mentally Awake, eh? Or at least they're not givin' advice that's likely to be Trustworthy. Those details matter.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)