Getting Adult Leaders to step back

[sailingpj]

Thank you everyone for you advice. It has given me a lot to think about. I'm going to share it with the other members of the quarterdeck. Hopefully we can get this resolved here soon.

 

Engineer61, I believe that I and the other members of the quarterdeck do have the necessary abilities to put together a plan, then execute it. As Eagle said I did staff Jambo. I have also done several deliveries of sailboats. Actually, just a month or two ago my Boatswain and I took a 41' trimaran from Key West too Miami. The owner of the boat brought along a few friends, all of whom knew nothing about sailing. My boatswain and I got the boat to Miami without breaking anything, or losing anyone.

 

This past summer I crewed on a Stephens 47 sailboat on a trip from Miami to Newport RI. For most of the trip I was one of three people on the boat. About 1/3rd of the time on that trip I was the only one awake. Neither of the captains hired for that trip knew how to use our computer navigation software, so I was the one who planned out our courses, then I input all the waypoints into the GPSes that we had by the steering console. We followed that planed course to the letter. I predicted when we would arrive two days out, and was only off by 2 hours because when we were entering Long Island Sound We had to go by a place called the Race at max ebb. For a time we were making 11 knot through the water, but the GPS said we were only making 1.2 knots over the ground.

 

A few years ago I was asked to help deliver a Morgan 41 from Huatulco, Mexico to San Francisco. We only made it as far as Puerto Vallarta due to a blown head gasket. The captain, and owner, taught me a how to plot courses on a chart, and some other stuff about navigation. He then had me plan out our projected route for the trip. I did that, and we followed that route with unerring accuracy.

 

I have taken a couple of leadership trainings put on by various Sea Scout ships, I attended the National Young Leaders State Conference a few years ago.

 

I not only know that I have the ability to plan and execute an event. I also have proved it time and time again.

 

Now maybe the rest of the quarterdeck is lacking in some of my seamanship skills, but all of them have the necessary abilities, and most important, they have the desire. They all want to take on more responsibility within the ship.

[emb021]

""They don't seem to think we are capable of planning anything, or executing said plan."

 

"Did it ever occur to you that the Adult Leaders may be correct? That you really are not capable?"

 

Engineer61, you don't seem to understand that a big part of the purpose of Scouting is to enable these youth to be capable of just this sort of thing.

 

In the last years of Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they incorporated a new catchphrase that seems to have been dropped since then. I found it interesting, and its too bad we don't hear it nowadays. Its TTTTLTL. Or T5L2. My home council made a small patch with those letters done as logs in 3 row.

 

Oh. What does it mean?

 

Teach Them

Trust Them

Let Them Led

 

Too often scout leaders do the first thing, but are unwilling to allow the 2nd & 3rd thing to occur.

 

 

[OneTime Runner]

""They don't seem to think we are capable of planning anything, or executing said plan."

 

"Did it ever occur to you that the Adult Leaders may be correct? That you really are not capable?"

 

All the more reason for the adults to step back. If they fail, the will learn more from the failure than what the adults can teach them.

 

Let the boys plan the cruise. If they don't bother to check the boat schedule, then they can spend the day sitting on the dock waiting for it to return. If they forget to plan the menu and buy the food, they can go hungry for a couple of days. As long as their plans and actions stay inside the safety guidelines established by the BSA and their ship, let them make the mistakes. It will keep them from making mistakes when they're outside the safety net of scouting.

 

As the saying goes:

 

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. -Dan Stanford

 

[Engineer61]

"All the more reason for the adults to step back. If they fail, the will learn more from the failure than what the adults can teach them. "

 

...provided they survive the failure...right?

[Eagle92]

Eng,

You probably haven't heard about some of the Sea Scouts stories. Sea Scouts were used in WWII to help patrol the coasts. There is a photo of 2 Sea Scouts on a patrol boat in the Gulf of Mexico on the look out for German Subs, which were a real menace in teh early stages of US entry.

 

Then there were the 3 Sea Scouts who rescued an air crew that crashed into the sea.

 

Then there was a ship that did have mechanical problems and they solved the problem by themselves.

 

Then there was the Ship that got a decommissioned USN ship on the catch that they had to do the repair work and sail her to their home port. They spent a month on their own fixing her up, and sailing her down form Maine to VA.

 

Shall I go on?

 

Eng I have the feeling that you really don't have the confidence in your step-son and other scouts.

[qwazse]

It doesn't sound like capability was the issue. Otherwise the point of contention would not be when to cruise, but rather to cruise at all!

 

But, this brings up another, more personal, approach to Mrs. X.

"The other youth and I are getting the impression that you lack confidence in our ability carry out our responsibilities. Was there anything that we did that gave you this impression? What can we do to regain your trust? We would like to restore things to where the brunt of the work from planning on down is in the youths' hands. How can we act to rebuild that relationship?"

 

If she realizes that her actions convey something that she doesn't intend, and that it affects you on a more personal level, she might be more sensitive the next time. Plus it opens up the conversation to give you an idea of what you might do differently. (E.g. log minutes from your skype conversations ASAP.)

 

Without this kind of conversation, your Skipper may manage to reset boundaries so the adults "behave", but they can wind up feeling rejected when what we really want is a little personal growth on everyone's part.

[sailingpj]

Engineer, thank you. I just realized that your comments on this subject are exactly what Mrs. X would say, and has said. You are raising many of the objections that are likely to be raised. That is very helpful. They way I shall reduce those objections when they come up is by reminding them that they will have a chance to comment on our plans before we execute them. I will also remind them that most of the crew is trained in first aide, we have a couple lifeguards, and there are always at least two officers on the boat when we take it out anyway.

 

qwazse, I like your idea, I think I will give that a shot also.

[Eagledad]

Eng61 represents how we adults limit a scouts growth in the program. When I taught classes for scout leaders, I explained that adults control the unit by fear and egos. Hey, we all do it, but some folks are extreme. Typically its 80% fear to 20% ego, so I wiil stick with fear for now. I call these adult fears the circle of fear of a unit. Inside the circle is a comfort range on which the adults will allow the scouts to make their own decisions in their troop actinides. Outside the circle? No way! I knew of a troop that wouldn't even let their scouts go to their classes at summer camp without adult supervision. Another troop struggled and almost shutdown because the adults didn't even let the scouts run their opening ceremonies.

 

What the adults of all units have to do is first recognize they have these fears and are limiting the scouts program, and then train the scouts and themselves to push out the circle of their fear. Training develops confidence in the scouts abilities and allows the scouts to make more decisions where adults used to fear scouts going. I remember using the example in one of my classes of letting scouts do a 5 mile hike without adult supervision. I just pick that off the top of my head, but one scout leader got very upset and loud of how reckless that would be. So I asked him his fears of allowing scout to hike without adults. He started with a scout getting hurt and I explained firstaid training. He then mentioned getting lost and I responded with more training with map and compass and start with routes the scouts are familiar with, even if that is in town. Then he stated his real fear of molesters and bullies. I pointed out safety in numbers and again picking a safe route.

 

The idea I explained is knowing that a scouts growth is only limited by the adults fears, so the adults need to Knowingly push out that fear circle (all the time) through training for continued scout growth. That adult left the class kind of irritated, but he approached two years later at a Wood Bagde course and said he thought a lot about training through the fears and it changed their program a lot. He bragged that his troop had since done several 5 mile hikes without adult supervision.

 

Now, that is how to deal with the fear side of the adults. Some adults are to proud to admit that they have fears or can train past those fears. That is the Ego circle and that is a different adult problem all together.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[moosetracker]

I wish my husband was more of a reader.. Basically in our trip our youth more go to my husband because he is more supportive of them leading their own program.. He is an Eagle scout and got it one year before the "new" program hit in the 70's. But, he does have a definite limit of where he would give youth there head.

 

I tell him about the patrol outing.. Our troop I understand, could not do this, with the SM currently it is definately an adult run troop.. Son is now 20 and for dislikes the program, but stays in hopes to be able to change it. Husband is back & forth also of wanting to leave, and hoping to help the scouts get some sort of a decent program.

 

Husband even with his Eagle and his lobbying for a more boy-lead program is totally against patrol outings with no adult leaders. Patrol outings still need 2 deep Adult leadership..

 

His comment when I told him the patrol outtings without adult leadership was in jeapordy was "Good, they should do away with this."

 

I ask him what he had against it.. He said he was all for the patrol going on seperate outings and encourages all the time, but the scouts don't take him up on it. He is fine with the 300 ft method, but insists the adults need to be there for.. The two fears he mentioned was of someone getting injured or the boys setting fire to the forest..

 

Maybe it was me reading more into it, but when he said it, the things that crossed my mind was more a fear that would be more a lack of trust.. That they would bring alcohol or cigerettes, or spend the night looking a playgirl magazines.. Call it wifely intuition, it was just the mental image that hit when he said adults needed to be there in case they set the forest on fire. That of a wild uncontrol party.

 

Probably for us the whole concept is theoretical.. If the troop ever got a new SM and started moving back to being boy-lead, I doubt they would make this much of a rebound as to even contemplate the patrol outing.. Would it even be available when they were ready?

 

But, I am just curious what sort of arguement you would use with an adult who has these fears of allowing the patrol to go off on their own.

[Eagledad]

The way we got around the no adult patrol outings fear was to first do them at a scout camp where the camp ranger could check on them. The funny thing about it though, is the scouts didn't see the big deal of camping without adults because it was no different than our troop canopies where the patrols generally camp out ou sight of eac other anyways.

 

I personally had a fear of fire, so we had the fire department visit and explain the risk of improper fire techniques in the out doors. But a really good teacher is visiting the burn unit of a hospital. Our guys are experts in the area of fire, but men will be men, so firstaid training is a high priority. We (knock on wood) have never had a fire accident. I will say I have witnesses scouters doing some really stupid things with fire.

 

The key to getting past fears is first admitting that they are a problem in restricting scouts growth. Your husband doesn't see his fears as a problem. or he isn't willing to push himself out of that comfort zone, or circle.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

If one uses Barry's idea of fear and ego, I'm thinking it is more ego than fear. A SM has in his/her mind that the success of the the troop rests solely on him/her and then proceeds to insure it happens. The SM thus turns into a control freak.

 

If one abdicates one's authority to allow someone else the opportunity to do the job, one has to be ready to accept that it may fail. This is not good for one's ego. So if one does allow the boys any opportunity, it is only on a short leash so as to jerk them back into line if necessary to insure success. This guarantees the boys a safety net that they can rely on and never gives them the opportunity to "go it alone", i.e. toss them into the deep end of the pool and allow them to figure it out on their own.

 

Whenever I give the boys an opportunity to be responsible for something I also give them total authority to insure its success based upon their actions. Yes, I risk my SM ego in the process, but when I do get a success it far outweighs the times when my ego gets bruised. If I expect the boys to succeed, I usually get it. I win when the boy wins!

 

Do I get chaos and disaster occasionally? Yep.

 

We had a potential new recruit come visit our troop and while there, there were three patrols all working on something different. One patrol was doing requirements, sitting around a table while the Instructor showed them how to do some first aid things. This looked good to the recruit's parents. The second patrol was doing some lashings and basically doing what boys do, whipping each other with the ropes, waving the poles around somewhat carelessly but still getting the job done, eventually! The third patrol was doing a game and, well, you can imagine what that looked like to an outsider. The recruit never came back, but joined the other adult-led troop in the area where everything ran smoothly and were kept in line every minute of the meeting. For all intents and purposes it looked good. However no boy was doing anything in terms of leadership, it was all run by the adults.

 

A boy-led program will never look as polished and well run as an adult-led program. My ego can accept that because when all the dust settles, I have boys that have really lead in the process and not followed the directives on an adult leader.

 

In terms of troop reputation the adults of the district and council hold the other troop in higher esteem than mine. So what! I know what I have, the boys know what they have and none of them would trade what they have for the "benefits" of the other troop. The opportunity for Sea Base, BWCA and Philmont are given to my boys just as much as those of the other troop, and we are signed up for Philmont in 2013. Although only half the size of the other troop, we put out two Eagles last year the same as the other troop.

 

If one truly cares for their boys and expects their success in the process, one's ego can be put on the shelf and all fear goes by the wayside.

 

Do I get parents that are concerned as to how my troop is run? Not very often. Do I get comments about how much their boy has matured and is more confident in school and other activities besides scouts? All the time. It's a trade off that they seem willing to accept. Do I have parents that pull their boys out of the program? Yep, but they tend to be those that are threatened by the maturity and independence these boys are taking on. Their dear little boy isn't a little boy for very long in my troop. I even had one parent complain that their boy was expected to take on an adult's job in the troop. When the smoke settled on that hassle, their boy had done the job so well it surprised even the parents.

 

Believe in your boys, expect the best and one can very easily leave one's ego at the door without any fear at all.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

 

[Eagledad]

>>If one uses Barry's idea of fear and ego, I'm thinking it is more ego than fear. A SM has in his/her mind that the success of the the troop rests solely on him/her and then proceeds to insure it happens. The SM thus turns into a control freak.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

OH SNAP! THis site is full of "Ego Scouters" !

 

Ha ha ha!

 

 

[Lisabob]

"Fear is easy to fix because the adults want the scouts to grow"

 

Barry, I would amend that to read:

 

"Fear is easy to fix IF the adults want the scouts to grow."

 

In general, I agree about the fear thing. But I think there are many adults who - though they may not fully realize it, themselves - really are not interested in seeing scouts grow. And some people will simply not let go because they don't believe that boys CAN be responsible and effective leaders, no matter how much training you provide.

 

In that case, adult fear can be just about insurmountable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"All the more reason for the adults to step back. If they fail, the will learn more from the failure than what the adults can teach them. "

 

 

 

Not all failure is a matter of life or death.

 

Sometimes failure means an activity does not happen due to poor planning or a lack of attention to detail.

 

Sometimes failure means an event gets postponed, ends early or gets cancelled completely

 

Sometimes failure means you get wet when you had plans on staying dry.

 

Sometimes failure is the difference between eating a cold pop tart and a nice hot stew.

 

Sometimes, failure means that you lose your leadership and somebody else takes it.

 

Sometimes failure means that you have to stop, undo what you did and start completely over.

 

And all of those are situations where failure could also be called: learning, education, lesson learned, experience, etc...

 

But if failre results in death, I might go so far as to (mostly, not completely) blame the adult leadership.... as before failure got to the point of no return, somebody should have stepped in - in their "mentoring adult advisory position" - and said : "Hey, due to the imminent risk of serious injury, bodily harm ,and possibly death, this is when we have to take over."

 

Afterall, Isn't that one of the bigger points of adult leadership?

 

You can teach youth how to not die in the jungle by teaching them about the jungle, making them familiar with the jungle ,and letting them experience the jungle...... or you can teach then to avoid the jungle completely.

 

And by jungle,I mean a general term for any part of life outside of four squared and plumb sheetrock walls.