New BSA Medical Forms

[5yearscouter]

I'm all for limiting weight to under 300 lbs if it's somewhere backwoods that you have to haul someone out on a stretcher for miles. yeah, 2 adults and a handful of kids is still going to have difficulty moving you.

 

the faq says basically that kind of backwoods stuff is when you need to meet the height and weight requirement.

 

and then BSA goes and puts height and weight as a requirement for the dr's signature for any over 72 hour camp.

 

 

so take Webelos to Webelos Encampment, where they don't go off the BSA camp area, they don't do anything that could be a stretch of health or safety issue, yet the leader must pass the height and weight requirement to walk around a little bit and sit in a chair watching the boys try to whittle a piece of wood into a sharp stick to poke each other.

 

Which is BSA's intention?

the FAQ says one thing, the form says something else. Make them match, one way or the other, either say you don't want anyone that doesn't meet the health and safety to go on any outings over 72 hours in length (as if length of outing makes it more hazardous)

or let the height and weight facts speak for themselves and let the dr sign that the health and medical form is ACCURATE, which is the important part.

(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

[Eagle92]

Actually not only backwoods but any time you are 30 minutes away from a hospital. Now the form didn't originally explain it, the FAQs did, which I'm told may not amount to a hill of beans in court, but the FAQs state 30 minutes from a road.

 

Some nice, easy trails in a state park will put you 30 minutes out, approx 2 miles doing the old Scout's Pace, so no CS hiking for you if you don't meet the H/W chart.

 

Also as has been mentioned there are, to use a military term, PT MONGERS, who do not meet these charts, but have very low body fat. My brother-in-law every year had to get a "weight waiver" and do a more accurate BMI test, despite maxing out his PT test. He was a PT Monger who ran and did weights every day.

[moosetracker]

Basically I think this policy will definitely encourage slimming down. Like the slimming down of membership in the BSA.

 

Also can anyone explain why Woodbadge is consider some sort of high Activity saftey risk? Ok maybe the week long, Woodbadge over exceeds 72 hours so that to BSA means high risk But most are 2 weekends at a residence camp..

 

Is it just because woodbadgers must set the "High example"?

 

I am wondering our council has Heading Woodbadge this year, The ones for the past few years would now find themselves disqualified 6 months before woodbadge (and after spending alot of money going to Philmont for training).. Also many who staff woodbadge yearly will now be disqualified..

 

 

[JMHawkins]

I'm all for limiting weight to under 300 lbs if it's somewhere backwoods that you have to haul someone out on a stretcher for miles. yeah, 2 adults and a handful of kids is still going to have difficulty moving you.

 

But part C isn't about how difficult it's going to be for the rest of the Troop to pack somebody out. I'm 260, but 6'4", so I pass. If one of the other leaders is 6'0" and 250, he doesn't. I weight more than he does. I'll be a bigger headache for someone to pack out if I get hurt, but I can go and he can't. What, the extra 4 inches is enough room for another pair of scouts to grab hold and help lift? Yeah, riiiiiight. So discussions about how hard it will be to extract someone from the backcountry, while totally relevant to actual planning of a trip, aren't at all relevant to this here form.

 

The height/weight stuff on the form is nothing but a bureaucrat's version of a fitness test. Nobody but bureaucrats use BMI, but they love it because it's A Rule they can write down on a piece of paper and look up answers with. Doesn't matter if the answers are actually worthless, they're easy to look up so the bureaucrat can hide behind them and not have to be responsible for any actually thinking.

 

Or leadership.

 

Bureacracy Scouts of America. Maybe we can add a breakout session to the Pergo Badge cirriculum for calculating BMI.

 

I applaud the idea of setting some fitness standards. I deplore the implementation BSA has chosen to go with.

 

BOOO, Irving.

[5yearscouter]

if the FAQ said this

Part C is the physical exam that is required for participants in any event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours for all high-adventure base participants, or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding.

 

That would make sense for what the Part C form actually says.

 

Realistically for a scout going even to summer camp for a week where they are not going hardly off the camp and are sitting around doing merit badges all week, Part A&B would be sufficient medical information, you know their allergies, their medicines, and their important contact info.

 

Part C SHOULD just be required for more strenuous activity, not just LONGER in length activity. Length isn't the important factor from a safety perspective, how long it takes to get to help and if the person seems ok for strenuous activity is the important part.

 

Then Part D is for really stenuous activy, long lasting, far into the back woods, high adventure stuff.

 

Interestingly enough under the FAQ part for Part D it says

most Philmont Training Center conferences and family programs, will not require completion of Part C. However, participants should review Part D to understand potential risks inherent at 6,700 feet in elevation in a dry Southwest environment.

 

Now if Philmont visits won't require Part C (not D, it says C) for family programs that many last long weekends or week long--then regular stuff for everyone else shouldn't really require part C either.

 

I think there is a failure to communicate between who made the form, and who wrote the FAQ.

If those two people are not on the same page, then the rest of us scouters have no hope for being able to figure this out.

 

[5yearscouter]

looking closer at the forms

there really isn't a part D form, it's part D words/explanation of what high adventure is and then says they need to have the dr sign part C that they meet the height and weight chart requirements.

 

I think they are trying to have one form do too much completely and medical drs are going to be too confused to figure this out.

 

parents fill out part A&B, and it asks for info about last A1C test, last seizure, last asthma attack, and cpap machines and oxygen. A regular scouter looking at this info, doesn't need to know the date of the last A1C test cause they don't know what that means. Date of test doesn't tell you if diabetes is controlled, the test numbers tell you that. So that is info that should be under part C if at all needed on this form. Dates of last asthma attack or seizure doesn't tell a regular non-medical scouter any info either-- I don't know if it's good if the last asthma attack was last month, I can assume if the last asthma attack was yesterday that maybe you need to be watched carefully for breathing issues. And seizures, well if you had one years ago, it's not so important for me to know the date, but if you have them weekly, I need to know that info and the date also isn't that important, is it?

 

BSA needs to realize that this form is required for cub scouts going to an overnighter at coucil properties. many packs/webelos dens will want it for any activity or campout, so part A & C nees to be based on useful information to the Scouters in charge of the event where a medical practitioner may not be available, but someone with first aid training should be available. They need to know way more about the kids that are allergic to peanuts, milk products, bee stings, and such and what to do about it, than they would ever need to know about immunization status. yes, they need to know about meds, and basic diagnoses, but they don't need to know that you had this or that surgery 10 or 20 years ago. Part A&B needs to be a useful document for scouters at the events, meetings and outings to cover the basics of care with probably enough info to get medical treatment started and contact information for parents and other adults.

 

Part C should be for weekend basic campouts, hikes, regular summer camps, overnighters, where the parents probably don't come--

so you need a bit more background medical information in case someone goes to the hospital. Most of the time for these events you are going to be close to medical care.

 

Part D should be for strenuous events and backcountry outings that last longer than 1 or 2 days (so maybe the 72 hour thing). I really can't think of many service projects that are all that strenuous overall but maybe the big multi day ones where people are more likely to get hurt on the 2nd or 3rd day when they are tired and maybe dehydrated. These could include Philmont etc high adventure. These would require part A-C plus a doctors signature that you meet the height/weight, no uncontrolled diabetes, no uncontrolled seizures, etc.

 

Why does the BSA make this so difficult???

[pchadbo]

First thanks for the heads up on this it was great timing as we had our summer camp coordinators meeting yesterday. They brought out the new med forms and said oh here they are OK? any questions? and were surprised when my hand went up (forewarned is forearmed right?) and asked about the doc signing the hight/weight chart. As I have a spare tire that disqualifies me form the chart, I askedif I could still go, and pay attention Moose, was told that our cubscout camp DOES NOT require leaders meet the "high adventure" requirements, now I just have to try to convince my doc to sign the new form.

[moosetracker]

That's the kicker Pchadbo.. I told our DE that supposably we were allowed to go to camp without the weight/height requirement, now it is up to them to figure out how this is suppose to happen if we can't get the doc signature, or how does the doc sign this statement for summer camp involvement..

 

if 5yrscouter is correct and part C is no longer needed for camp.. Whoo-hoo.. Makes it alot easier for those in the trenches to get these forms to us in time for camp. But somehow, I think that would be just too nice of the bean counters to do for us..

 

Anyway our district is forewarned, and I believe now the council is forewarned so hopefully we will have answers from them at roundtable..

 

Also I or my son (don't remember who now) forewarned them of the changes to to Tour Permit into the tour planning.. So it should be "hopefully" a very informative roundtable.

[SeattlePioneer]

I think I'd either cross out the parts the Doc needn't consider or ask the Doc to cross out portions he can't approve in whatever way he wants to do it.

[5yearscouter]

QUOTE from Seattle Pioneer: "I think I'd either cross out the parts the Doc needn't consider or ask the Doc to cross out portions he can't approve in whatever way he wants to do it."

 

But will the dr cross out lines on a form and sign it?

Should the dr have to do so?

I think Part D should be a copy of Part C with the meets height and weight thingy,

and the doesn't have seizures and all the rest for high adventure stuff only.

 

Part C should stay as it is, without the Dr having to swear that you meet the high adventure requirements, that don't belong on that form to use at "regular" summer camps that aren't all that strenuous for the most part.

 

Basically Part C form shouldn't be trying to do the work of Park C form and Part D high adventure base form both. They should be two separate forms.

 

[NOldFatGuy]

Perhaps I'll just tell all the parents of the troop that the SM and I are over the BMI standards and will therefore be unable to take the troop on any outings over 72 hours, and if they have any questions please feel free to contact the people responsible for this and then give them nationals number.

[JMHawkins]

NOldFatGuy,

 

Don't forget to tell your DE that your Friends Of Scouting coordinator doesn't meet the BMI standards either, and since badgering all those parents for money in today's economy is a bit of a "high adventure" endeavor, you'll have to cancel your FOS participation.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Guys,

 

Got this back from our council Program director, after asking about what the work around was with form C to allow people to have them filled out for Summer camp if they were not in picture perfect health.. Decided to share it here, might as well get all of us emailing them..

 

I share your concern about the new form and will pose the question to the national office, but Id encourage you to e-mail them directly as well: Health.Safety@scouting.org. The more people from around the country they hear from, the more likely they are to act quickly. I think we should still encourage people to use the new form and hopefully well get some clear direction on how to handle exceptions soon.

[Eagle007]

So are they saying that if enough people bend their ears on certain things that they will make changes?

[moosetracker]

They at least need to make some change to allow a Dr to sign a med form if your are not 100% healthy for the sake of getting these people to summer camp.. As it is now, you are eliminating alot of people, 4 from my troop without even looking at the weight issue..

 

They need to take their head out of the sand and address the very LARGE problem they have just caused.. If they don't they will be loosing membership as the unhealthy and the families of the unhealthy (those with healthy brothers).. Voice their opinion loudly with their feet. Not to mention some camps may have staffing problems between their wonderful pay and then this eliminating factor.. Or full the troops that can not go to summer camp because the adult leaders who can get the time off from work are not 100% healthy..

 

Lots of lost people at their camps.. Possibly lots of people leaving scouts. Maybe that is their plan.. More room for soccer scouts!