Local and National Tour Permits Obsolete

[Beavah]

Ah NealonWheels, don't ask Little Richard that, eh? He'll be tempted to make somethin' up and then we'll all be stuck with da confusion for years.

 

I read it as patrol outings are still fine, eh? Just don't be a moron and send 'em on a solo whitewater adventure down the Grand Canyon. Of course nobody's doin' that anyway, and if anyone is they're not goin' to listen to a detailed read of page 17 the way we poor scouting bureaucrat-addicts are, eh? So in truth, there's really no need for National to get into it. The folks who are uncomfortable with patrol method/outings shouldn't and won't do them. Da folks who are comfortable with patrol method and outings will continue to do 'em responsibly.

 

There's no need for a least-common-denominator "rule" or definition. But if yeh insist on one, da office rats are goin' to think in terms of a rule that fits a NSP full of 10 year olds, and we'll be left with all of Boy Scouting dumbed down to that level. Do yeh want that?

 

Irony is that given training and relative fitness levels, a group of six experienced high school aged scouts is goin' to be safer on the AT than a group of 4 with two typical BSA adults. The kids are all sure to have had recent camping experience, first aid training, and decent fitness. None of those is required for adults. How many adults to we kill or medically evacuate from Philmont each year?

 

Beavah

 

[NealOnWheels]

Beavah,

 

Richard is one of the few people at national who do talk to those of us on the "front line".

 

I think such a channel of communication is important as we may have influence on policy decisions.

 

I am more concerned about those a national who set policy and hand them down to us without our input. For example the definition of "active" for advancement purposes.

[ScoutNut]

Per SR540Beaver - "ScoutNut, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx"

 

Yep, as I posted, you can still go directly to this FAQ, and the Tour Plan, if you already have this link.

 

However, if you do not already have this link, there is no way to reach it thru the BSA National site - anymore. BSA took all info about the new Tour Plan off if it's Scouting Safely-Forms page (which is where the above link originally came from).

 

So, it looks like someone jumped the gun a bit. Not surprising with National. They might be waiting to do some kind of announcement before they release the info officially.

 

 

[moosetracker]

seems my last post, crossed with other posts, so RichardB is from National.. Again welcome..

And yeah Neilonwheels did a much better explanation. I just gave you the simple, not the detailed answer.

 

Our troop doesn't do the patrol outings, as our COR & parents would not agree to it, but for those troops that get the blessings of the parents, I think it is awsome, and I totally support them having that right. I will be sorry to see that taken away if it is.

 

Scouting is getting more and more adult lead and less and less boy run.. That is sad.

[NJCubScouter]

Patrol outings in the sense of literally youth only hiking the Appalachian trail is in process of being removed as a conflict in the literature quoted with the safety rule of four, minimum two adults, two youth.

 

Rather than trying to figure out exactly what that means, I would focus on the words "in process." It is not a policy at this time. Hopefully (I was going to say presumably, but I shouldn't presume this), when the actual policy is announced, it will have some clarity to it. Then we can talk about it, laugh about it, cry about it, complain that it's the end of Scouting as we know it, or whatever seems appropriate to each of us at the time.

 

On the example used, it's kind of amusing because we did once have something like that happen in our troop at least once. It was not a full-day patrol hike on the Appalachian Trail, but was a side hike (from a camping trip in one of the many camps near the AT) in which a carefully chosen group of boys with a carefully chosen leader (the SPL at the time) was permitted to split off on their own and did about 2 miles on the AT before meeting up with the rest of us. It was not a "natural" patrol, and the leader was the SPL. Whether it was a good idea or not, or allowed by BSA policy, remains unclear to me, but fortunately there was no problem.

 

But ok, say it's not the Appalachian Trail. We have the Watchung Mountains in our area, and while in most states they would be considered more hills than mountains, parts of it can be somewhat rugged. I think our "older boy" patrol could handle most of it without any problem, although there never has been such a hike without adults in our troop. We'll see how specific the new policy is, if there turns out to be one.

[packsaddle]

"and if anyone is they're not goin' to listen to a detailed read of page 17 the way we poor scouting bureaucrat-addicts are, eh? So in truth, there's really no need for National to get into it. The folks who are uncomfortable with patrol method/outings shouldn't and won't do them. Da folks who are comfortable with patrol method and outings will continue to do 'em responsibly.

 

There's no need for a least-common-denominator "rule" or definition. But if yeh insist on one, da office rats are goin' to think in terms of a rule that fits a NSP full of 10 year olds, and we'll be left with all of Boy Scouting dumbed down to that level."

This is perfect logic and first rate pragmatism. I like it. I could not begin to improve on it. I begin to feel ill when I think about the form-hungry nature of bean-counting bureaucracies like National. Good Grief! The reason that we volunteers keep getting all this bean-counting stuff piled on is because we respond to it and take it seriously. This sends a message to the bean counters that THEY must be doing something productive and they can actually measure it because, hey, look at all this paper the volunteers generated when THEY ordered us to jump to it. So THEY are free to conclude that their success could be even larger if they piled on some more. And then the bureaucracy tends to swell and swell with more and more forms and finally becomes engorged until the bean counters are practically having a bean-counting orgasm. Then they can finally lie back and smoke a cigarette, savoring the after-glow of a 'job' well-done.

 

So here's how to break this dog from sucking eggs: We file tour permits out the ying yang. We pile it on. We meet the deadlines and then demand performance from the bean-counters. Nag them about the deadlines. Call them often to ask about the status. Give them exactly what they asked for. Make their 'dream' into a nightmare. They asked for paper: time to dump it to them.

[RichardB]

Okay, so how do the members of the patrol get to the location of said outing? Does someone drive? Or when they hike / bike to location when does the actual event begin? Example the Night Owl patrol camps in the city park overnight.

 

Or is the patrol outing, as NJCubScouter illustrates, an excursion away from the troop body on the trail or another example given to me at one time your patrol heads over to the other side of the reservation one night.

[packsaddle]

Aaaahhhh, that feels better now.

So look at it this way: if we just pretend to take this seriously and simply conform to the new 'rules', this could keep their attention diverted or occupied for a long time while they slap each other on the back for that job well done. Just think of how much mischief they could have done elsewhere if they hadn't been occupied by 'tour permits'. I say try to hold their attention. Do it right. Compliment them, maybe even ask them if these bean-counting exercises could be improved even more. That might actually 'save' something for the boys in another part of the program.

[moosetracker]

From my understanding, it could be as you say, and excursion away from the group, while on a trip that is more distant to get to..

 

But mostly I have heard of them being jaunts close by,

 

so it might be a bike ride starting at the Troops normal meeting place, or on a nearby bike trail, where the parents drive the boys over, drop them off and return to pick them up later in the day.

 

Many towns have an approved camping area that scouting units or youth organizations are welcomed to use.. Again parents may drive them to this starting point, they then hike or bike in, camp overnight and return the next day.

 

A patrol scheduling a local gym and playing games in it for the evening. Again parents would drive them over.

[rkfrance]

This is the response our council received from National today.

 

"Tour planning sheet is going to replace the local and national tour permit, it

will take effect in February (last I was told) . As far as online permits -

they are going away. They will be turning off the on-line tour permit link on

February 1, 2011.

 

There are still quite a few changes that will be happening with the tour permits

so stay tuned for more information to come. Your updates will come in the form

of a database communication from the National office regarding this matter,

hopefully soon."

 

 

[John-in-KC]

RichardB,

 

I live in the burbs of Kansas City. Ask Mr Terry (Chief Eagle from the Sun in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say). From Parkville, Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, Kearney, Liberty, Gardner-Edgerton, even Lawrence, KS, a patrol could ruck up, hike 5 miles, and be out to a treestand on a farmer's property (we shall hope the PL did the LNT right thing and asked permission for his patrol to camp first). Now, for a Troop in the central core, near Mr Terry's old office at 103d and Holmes, they might need rides to the dropoff/pickup point. They might not; the Patrol could BIKE out.

 

Scouts in huge chunks of the Nation can do this. Troops in smaller towns (think Salina, KS, Boonville, MO, Cheyenne, WY, or Osceola, IA) could hike just two miles and be in land appropriate for an overnight camp.

 

So the answer is "Both of the above." As Rick Seymour (Kudu here) says, a patrol should have as its goal independent operations. It can be done. Heck, it was done, back in the 60s when my brother and I were youth members. A fully independent outing is possible. A detachment from a Troop activity is possible.

[FScouter]

"... I begin to feel ill when I think about the form-hungry nature of bean-counting bureaucracies like National. Good Grief! The reason that we volunteers keep getting all this bean-counting stuff piled on ..."

???

 

The new "rules" make for an easier and more streamlined process, and fewer TPs needed. Sounds good to me!

[packsaddle]

Yeah, that was a temper-tantrum. I feel much better now. I have a special place for bean counting and counters and it isn't in my heart.

 

John-in-KC, I remember it well. Our patrol did at least as many 'patrol activities' as there were troop outings, probably more. We actually had separate patrol meetings other times of the week, went on hikes, fishing, camping trips, biking, swimming, chunked rocks off the Mountain Island Dam spillway (oops probably shouldn't mention that)......

[RichardB]

Okay, think I have the concept of a patrol outing when they organize plan and execute under patrol power (hike to farmer johnson's pasture).

 

Getting confused if their parents or a driver is involved. Isn't that a little beyond just the patrol capabilites and competencies, so is that still a patrol outing or not? Wouldn't you want two deep leadership and a tranportation plan? Another example was given of aquatics,

and since those program standards have in place qualified supervision (safe swim, safety afloat) how would you handle that in "today's" patrol?

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

Transportation plan? It ain't that complicated. The scouts find adults to drive just like they do for a movie or school event.

 

IMO, if a senior patrol cannot independently (without adults) plan and execute a hike and campout, then we have failed to deliver the Promise and are no more than Cub Scouts Part 2.

 

Qualified supervision for swimming? Who is qualified, a certified lifeguard in the patrol or a fat adult who took an online internet course?

 

Don't hike much in farmer's pastures. BTW, my son is planning a weekend AT backpack this summer with some of his buddies and no adults, though Dad will drop off and pickup. They gave up trying to make this outing a scout activity.

 

My $0.02(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)