Local and National Tour Permits Obsolete

[Eagle92]

A few comments.

 

1) I guess Sea Scout Ships don't need to use these forms since they are not mentioned on them like other units, i.e. Pack, Troop/team, Crew, Contingent unit/crew

 

2)Well at least it says At least one person must be current in CPR/AED from any recognized agency to meet Safety Afloat and Climb On Safely guidelines. so that a youth with those certs meets the requirements. Some yutes may have jobs that require the CPR and FA certs. Heck I know that Lifeguards are required to have the professional grade certs in order to maintain their Lifeguard cert.

[click23]

I submitted the following to nationals health and safety team yesterday:

 

 

I came across the new national Tour Plan today, and I have a few questions. The Tour Plan states:

"Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities."

while the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA."

 

Is "one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older" acceptable for an activity that requires a Tour Plan, or must we have two

registered adult leaders on said activities?

 

The G2SS states that patrol actives do not require adult leaders, yet the Tour Plan state that two leaders are needed for all activates. Which is correct?

 

The G2SS states "both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA", while the Tour Plan states "crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities". Would one registered crew leader and an another adult over 21 be acceptable as the G2SS states??

 

 

The Health and Safety Team Leader just replied with this:

 

 

First, give the tour plan another month to execute, consider the link a preview.

 

Leadership requirements for outings have not changed. Two deep MINIMUM, one registered, second registered or another adult. Coed overnight requires coed adults. In the case of crews second must be 21.

 

Patrol outings in the sense of literally youth only hiking the Appalachian trail is in process of being removed as a conflict in the literature quoted with the safety rule of four, minimum two adults, two

youth.

 

[ScoutNut]

While the specific links still work, yesterday evening National pulled all of the info about the new Tour Plan from the Forms page of the Scouting Safely site.

 

It was obviously posted prematurely, and was not ready for roll out just yet.

 

[SR540Beaver]

ScoutNut,

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah, "Yah, folks, a form is just a form, eh? It's paperwork, not policy."

 

A form that you put your signature on. While the two times in my life I used lawyers were not positive experiences, I do trust them enough to heed warnings about the power of your signature on a form and being held accountable to the words on the form you signed.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[NJCubScouter]

I wish that when "they" put a new form on the web site, the accompanying explanation would include a clear statement about when the new form takes effect. Actually it's two questions, one is when it becomes permissible to use the new form, and the second is when it becomes mandatory to use the new form (or in other words on what date councils will start rejecting the old forms.) Sometimes these two dates will be the same and sometimes they will not be -- if indeed any dates are provided at all.

[NJCubScouter]

I read the FAQ and the form fairly quickly, but I did not see anywhere that SPECIFICALLY says that this replaces the local tour permit. Maybe that is implied, but I like it better when things are made very clear.

 

The "At a councils request" part is also potentially troublesome. Some councils may request that this form be required in all cases in which a local tour permit is now required -- which I guess they have the right to do, but I hope all councils that go beyond what National is requiring will make that very, very clear to all units. (You may be noticing a theme in my comments here; I really think the BSA needs to greatly improve its communications with the units in general, and on day-to-day things like tour permits in particular. This is not a knock on the BSA in particular, as every organization I have ever been involved with has had problems with communication, but its a particular problem in a large organization where the "end users" of the information are volunteers.)

 

Also, is it made clear when this new form goes into effect? (I just asked the same question about the new-improved health form.)

[SMEagle819]

Well, I just turned in 3 "old" Tour Permits for our trips for the next 3 months, and nothing was said to me that the incorrect form was used. I followed something that was just struck down by the Supreme Court, "DA,DT".....

[moosetracker]

So how can the National Health and Safety Team Leader say Leadership requirements for outings have not changed in one breath then say Patrol outings in the sense of literally youth only hiking the Appalachian trail is in process of being removed in the next?

 

So guys remember when your patrols plan their patrol outings, it cannot be for the Appalachian Trail.. All other patrol outings are still OK.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[RichardB]

What is the definition of a patrol outing?

 

Yes, Neal - just want to know what the perceptions vs. realities are here on the list as some see a patrol outing is that more than 300' from the SM, others see it as portrayed in Follow Me Boys. So looking for the list think of the patrol outing.(This message has been edited by RichardB)

[moosetracker]

It has still been allowed that a patrol (not troop, just a single patrol) can go off on their own event with no adult supervision.

[NealOnWheels]

RichardB,

 

Are you Richard Bourlan from the national office?

 

If so why would you not know what a patrol outing is?

 

 

[NealOnWheels]

Ok, I see the the Guide to Safe Scouting lists the following things:

 

Trips - requires two adults

Outings - requires two adults

Patrol Activities - does not require any adults.

 

It does not mention Patrol Outings.

 

None of these are defined.

 

So Richard what are the definitions of Trips, Outings, and Patrol Activities.

[NealOnWheels]

Richard,

 

My perception of patrol outings:

 

An activity planned and conducted by a patrol (not a troop).

It could be a campout.

It could be a hike.

It could be any number of things.

It does not require adult leadership.

It has nothing to do with 300 feet.

The Scoutmaster could be at home miles away.

It must be approved by the Scoutmaster.

It must be ok with the parents.

It is a true test of the patrol method.

All patrols should aspire to this.

 

And I would be interested in your idea of reality.(This message has been edited by NealOnWheels)

[moosetracker]

Well TX is a big state, I am sure there are a few Richard's who last name starts with a "B" in TX.. But if you are from National, Welcome! I think alot of guys on this forum have great ideas, so having people from National peek in on us is not so bad a thought.

 

NealOnWheels - Up to now, SPL have been able to file tour permits as the leader of the event if they specify it is a Patrol outing.. My guess is Patrol Activity & Patrol outing is the same thing.. Or maybe National has changed from Patrol Outing to Patrol Activity, in that you can't go off on an outing on your own, but you can have a patrol Activity on the other side of camp while the rest of your troop is doing something else at the same camp.