Scouts having input into Bylaws - how far do you let em go

[FScouter]

Committee Chair:

I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

 

Scoutmaster:

Why, so can I, or so can any man;

But will they come when you do call for them?

 

Committee Chair:

Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command

the devil

 

Scoutmaster:

And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil

By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

 

Bylaws serve no purpose save that as fodder for those that would seek to control.

[BadenP]

Twocub

 

Interesting that in this thread you advise "that the unit belongs to the CO", yet on the other thread about an inactive CC/COR you advise 83eagle to ignore the CO and set up his own committee, you can't have it both ways dude!

 

Boy scouts is supposed to be boy led and adult advised unfortunately too many adult leaders don't get that. Of course the boys should have a large input into anything that affects their program.

[ScouterAdam]

What By-laws? Scout Oath and Law are the Bylaws along with what National states. Yes, the CO can put on additional requirements on the Unit. LDS & Catholic Churches do it.

 

 

However what Moosetracker says:

All I can think of that could be construed as unwritten bylaws are the following:

 

We have known yearly things the troop pays for such as we pay for the admission price of all camporees..

Of the money in the scouts accounts they must use it for scout related events or items. (not to buy soda at the local store.)

Adults need to be fully trained per National in order to take on the role of SM or ASM.

Adults need to be fully trained per National for SM position to stay overnight on a troop event.

Troop will pay for adult training (all but Woodbadge) provided you attend the course (we don't pay if you register for it but do not attend.)

 

 

To me that's generally included Annual Planning Program that the Troop puts together. Some of these such as not buy Soda, Wood Badge Training can be in the basic understanding of how the Unit operates. But that would come down from the Troop Committee as Troop Operations...(ok, a tad like by-laws).

 

I mainly view By-laws as added rules to abide by. BSA/GSS have a lot to follow and just know.

 

 

[Beavah]

Interestin' some of the comments.

 

I think yeh have to think in terms of two different groups, eh? The troop committee should have bylaws that affect committee operations: quorum rules, votes, how new members or officers are selected, and da scope of the committee (what the SM or SPL can buy on their own from petty cash for reimbursement, what's a big enough expense to require prior approval, etc.).

 

Then, a troop might also have a youth-level set of bylaws/policies that affect da PLC. Good way to teach 'em procedures and citizenship and how to make decisions that get "buy-in" and all the rest. That might include terms of office for youth officers, quorum rules, votes, as well as any "policies" the boys choose to set for themselves. We expect Venturing Crew youth to adopt such bylaws, but there's no reason why a troop can't.

 

What gets funny between da two is yeh have to define scope of responsibilities for each group, eh? Generally I think yeh should restrict the scope of the committee and expand da scope of the PLC. So from some of the examples above, here are things people assigned to the committee that I think could properly be restricted from the committee and left to the boys:

 

How camporees are paid for

Choosing and buying gear

What movie to watch

What the troop dues are

What the troop fundraisers are

 

No reason for the TC to get involved with that stuff.

 

Some other things might be a shared responsibility, eh? If a lad is expecting his fellows to help with an Eagle project, I don't know why he shouldn't take it before the PLC for approval and scheduling. Perhaps da PLC will even opt to authorize some money for his project. The committee bylaw could be "we sign off on projects only after the PLC's approval."

 

Now no doubt some adult-run sort will imagine that the PLC will pick on some poor deserving scout, and that's why youth can't be trusted to look over a project plan. Or that youth don't have a proper sense for safety, and so can't be trusted. or... As Eagledad often says, da scope of youth run is limited only by the fearfulness of the adults.

 

But if yeh feel that's the case, then da problem isn't bylaws, it's your program. If your program really allows a PLC to pick on unpopular boys, or if your program really doesn't teach boys how to make good safety decisions, then get off your duffs and fix that! We're here to teach 'em how to be good, responsible citizens, aren't we? So if the lads can't be trusted, then that's our fault as leaders, mentors, and examples.

 

Otherwise, trust 'em.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[rdclements]

Unit by-laws are not be needed - everything needed to run a unit is provided by the BSA. In my experience, by-laws are created to address other problems in a unit - and not successfully.

A well running PLC will comfortably and effectively establish and manage troop traditions. They can't change advancement or other major elements, but there are ways to have unit identity and the PLC should own those.

[Beavah]

Unit by-laws are not be needed - everything needed to run a unit is provided by the BSA.

 

So when da BSA tells Venturers that they should adopt bylaws, the BSA is lying?

 

Units occasionally deal with serious disciplinary matters, for either adults or youth. Please show me the BSA procedure describing how the committee is to handle and make a decision that involves suspension or expulsion of a member. It's a task given to the committee, with no guidance at all on how to go about it.

 

Units deal with lots of money. Please show me the BSA procedures for accounting controls and how major purchases are to be approved and handled.

 

Da point of course is that we definitely do not provide everything needed to run a unit. That's why we partner with chartered organizations and why we rely on volunteers. I know that there's always a temptation to go overboard with rules, whether at da local or council or national level (just take a look at G2SS ). But just because that trap exists does not mean that the solution is not to have any rules or bylaws to guide da group.

 

The BSA has bylaws. The councils have bylaws. Many units are incorporated or unincorporated associations, eh? They need to have bylaws. The rest just should, so as to define da scope of their operations and keep the loudest person from runnin' away with the thing.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter]

No, BSA is not lying. Someone posting here perhaps? Where does BSA say a Cub Scout pack needs bylaws? Where is the template provided by BSA for troop bylaws? Where does it say a Venturing Crew needs bylaws?

 

Of course BSA has bylaws. They are a national corporation with millions of members. Does a troop in Podunktown with a few kids need bylaws? This stuff isnt rocket science, and reasonable adults working together dont need some archaic legalistic written document to govern their actions. Adults having trouble working together arent going to solve their problems by writing bylaws, especially when those unable to work together are the ones writing them. A loudmouth bully adult isnt going to follow bylaws anyway.

[Beavah]

Where does it say a Venturing Crew needs bylaws?

 

In all of the Venturing program materials, including the crew officer's orientation. Crew bylaws are an explicit part of the Venturing program. At least according to the BSA

 

Now, where does it say anywhere that bylaws are not recommended for any other units? Answer: nowhere.

 

Now, yeh might have a CO like the Society of Friends that for its own reasons doesn't like bylaws. Absent that, however, there's no reason to take a position that they aren't recommended.

 

I think da bigger question here, though, is what we trust or allow the youth to do, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[emb021]

To add to Beavah's comment.

 

The Venturing Leaders Manual speaks of bylaws and provides a bare bones (very bare bones) template. The Sea Scout Manual does the same for Ships. Further, the use of bylaws is ALSO mentioned in the Venturing Leader Specific Training. Not certain off the top of my head if the Sea Scout Leader training does the same.

 

Further, OA Lodges have bylaws, tho they call them "Lodge Rules". These are covered in the "Guidebook for Officers and Advisers".

 

As to Packs, Troops, Teams, NOTHING is said regarding bylaws. So one could assume they aren't needed. Never seen anything that forbids them, but certainly you don't see for them what is done for Crews/Ships.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Oh boy, I can't beleive this, I think this is three times in a row I agree with Beavah and this time I am in opposition with FScouter...

 

I re-evaluated the situation and unfortunately Beavah is correct

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/25-878.pdf

 

Check page 3,

 

G"uide youth leadership.Youth officers are elected and trained to lead, plan, and make decisions regarding the implementation of crew programs and activities.They should serve long enough to have successful experiences. The crew president should appoint a committee to draft the crew bylaws."

 

Clearly ByLaws are part of the Venturing Crew. One could make the argument however that the By Laws are to come from the youth as the Crew President (Youth) is to appoint the By Laws COmmittee but it doesnt say that the Crew President could not appoint adults either. But the issue is still that if the Youth Lead Venturing Crew has by laws, could not the Youth Lead Boy Scout Troop also have by Laws and the answer is, heck, I don't know I have always been against by laws as most of the time they are used more as a club to whack people over the head with than anything else, but thats just my experience. Other may find them helpful.

 

To mimic Venturing Crew By Laws they need to come form the boys and are implemented by the boys or should as there is no prohibition on adults doing it and if there is no prohibition, it is allowed, I guess

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

Yeah theres a sentence OGE quotes about bylaws in the Venturing Fast Start. Read further and you find another one sentence that mentions bylaws in the context that the crew president (a youth) should come up with a code of conduct.

 

Now, where does it say anywhere that bylaws are not recommended for any other units? Answer: nowhere.

 

Thats the weakest argument possible, false too, that because bylaws are not forbidden, therefore they are recommended. Any troop or pack or any unit that wants to write up bylaws is perfectly free to do so. Lets just be honest about it and not make any false claims that BSA recommends them. If they were recommended, we could expect to see a paragraph or chapter about it in the Troop Committee Guidebook or the Scoutmaster Handbook, or the Cub Scout Leader Book or in the training materials, or sample bylaws published somewhere in all of Scouting materials.

 

It ain't there, and thereby you get a clue about the importance BSA puts on bylaws.

[BadenP]

I think this is more a battle of semantics than anything else, and Frank does make a valid point, bylaws, rules of conduct, lodge rules, whatever you want to call them this is a youth run program and the major input should be from the youth. Most units in my time in scouting have had some sort of conduct code but how they were followed or enforced is where it gets a litle murky. I think as far as a units adult committee is concerned the BSA materials do a pretty good job describing chain of command and procedural policies without the need of formal bylaws. If you want to teach youth leadership and policy making skills they first need to learn how to formulate realistic , doable, and obtainable goals which are not overly oppressive.

 

Remember the overall goal of scouting is to have fun not to be mired down with a bunch of rules and regulations that take all the fun out of the program.

[Rockford8070]

Regardless of whether or not you think troops and packs need bylaws. I think if the troop is to be boy led, the boys have to have input on them. And what better Ah ha moment than for a PL to come to an SPL with an idea for a bylaw that would truly help out the troop, then seeing that idea put into place?

[Twocubdad]

This is pretty clearly one of those local option things. No one from council or national is going to tell a unit they can't have unit by-laws, unless it's something in the bylaws which contradicts BSA policy.

 

If your unit leaders feel the BSA's silence regarding bylaws means they are prohibited or unnecessary, don't have them. If your leadership believes the silence equals the BSA aquiescence toward bylaws, and believe they are needed, start writing.

 

Different strokes.....

 

 

And B-P, you've totally misconstrued my advice to 83Eagle in the other thread. I'm not suggesting he ignore his CO, his CC/COR/CO is ignoring him. He's tried to engage the lady and she's gone ROAD on him. My advice is to take the path of least resistance and play the hand he's been dealt. If the CC/COR/CO decides to re-engage, then he needs to work with her, which is what 83Eagle was trying to do in the first place.

 

[BadenP]

Twocub, that is exactly what you told 83 I suggest you reread your own post

For the record the COR and the CO are NOT the same thing, one represents the other.