Scouts having input into Bylaws - how far do you let em go

[JMHawkins]

The recent thread about the SM voting in the Committee has a sidebar discussion about Troop bylaws defining Eagle requirements. It made me ponder a hypothetical.

 

Let's say you've got a great boy-led troop going and one day the SPL comes to you and says the PLC would like to have input into the Troop bylaws. How much leeway do you give them?

 

Suppose for example the PLC (with the troop voting to confirm it) wanted to add via the bylaws an additional requirement for Eagle - namely that the Troop had to vote 50%+1 to approve the candidate.

 

As a SM or TC member, how would you respond?

 

(this is purely hypothetical, I'm just provokin' discussion).

[red feather]

The PLC should have input into the bylaws. It is after all their troop. Learning moment is when they try to change BSA requirements and learn that they cannot. All part of the program.

 

yis

red feather

[Eagle92]

a few comments.

 

 

1) The PLC should be running things to begin with, with adults advising and supporting, so if the PLC wants to create by-laws, what's the problem?

 

2) While i have no problem with youth running the show, and they should be, they MUST follow the proper rules and procedures like everyone else, so the hypothetical question of voting on an Eagle candidate is not allowed, and as an adult our job would be to show them the rules, and explain to them that it cannot be done.

[Beavah]

Yah, what red feather said, eh? Let 'em set their own bylaws and rules, and learn what works and what doesn't.

 

For da Eagle thing, I'd encourage kids to discuss it, look into it, read up about it, talk to people. Let 'em figure things out for themselves. Maybe they discover they can't do that directly, but that they can still take a vote and send it along with their comments to the troop committee and EBOR as an unsolicited reference. Or perhaps they take it a different direction and push da committee to do 360 evaluations for everybody, or perhaps the PL takes a vote of his patrol and then has a frank "pre-BOR" with a fellow.

 

Always encourage the lads to brainstorm, explore, address problems they see, write letters to Irving, what have yeh. Those are the kids who care enough about Scouting to be its best citizens, tryin' to improve things. And if yeh show 'em some respect, they'll be Scouting's long-time supporters.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

My troop doesn't have by-laws, leastwise, none that I'm aware of.

 

Maybe the three rules we use are all that we need.

 

1) Safety First

2) Look and act like a Scout

3) Have fun

 

They aren't written down anywhere so I'm assuming they don't make much of a by-law thingy.

 

We only have a couple of small patrols now, so we don't have a PLC nor do we have an SPL unless some activity expects one, then the person organizing that activity takes on that role.

 

Patrols kinda do their own thing and everyone (adults) supports their efforts.

 

The Committee, flush with popcorn money, asked (yes, asked!) the boys to do an inventory and come up with a wish list for them to consider. QM is in charge of that and will make a presentation based on their findings. The CC has informed me the process they will adopt will be take the boys' prioritized list and start from top down until the money runs out. The CO made a generous donation to the boys this year and that money will allow more on the list to be purchased.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Eagle707]

You state clearly and unequivocally that they CANNOT adopt this requirement because it is a violation of BSA advancement standards. Youth-led refers to decisions that the PLC has influence for: anything set out in national guidelines cannot be changed.

Or, to put it another way, have your PLC members find where it is written that a unit can choose to vote on whether a Scout is worthy of Eagle rank. BSA has not said that a PLC can so they cannot edit these requirments.

 

We do NOT edit Eagle requirements. Ever. National provides us with requirements- not guidelines-and we need to follow them to the letter: Call your district executive to confirm this. The fact that every Eagle follows the same requirements is why the Eagle rank is universally respected: Everybody knows what was expected.

 

If you PLC wants to vote on "quality Scouts" then encourage them to hold an OA election. Elections are for the Order of the Arrow; Eagle is EARNED. If you implement this election process for Eagle, your Eagle candidates can appeal this to the district/council, it will be overturned, and your troop will be embarrased. Avoid the situation.

[moosetracker]

So in this thread things like advancement policy can not be changed yet in the thread it is linked to they can if it gets the CO's blessing.. So which is correct?

 

If the PLC has a vote that is against BSA policy & the CO says "go for it". Why is that ok in the linked thread, but not in this one?

 

Personally, I would encourage the PLC to make by-laws that benefited the troop and the scouts. I would have them discuss why they think this policy would be of benefit.. If they came up with some good arguements, fine.. Then I would point out to them, how it could be used unfairly and end up hurting the troop and individuals..

 

Now I know that even if the CO can make bylaws like this, the PLC can not. Hopefully after the discussion the PLC would see the error of their thinking. If not, I am unsure at this point if I would just tell them that things like advancement were the BSA, policy and could not be changed by them, or if I would let it bump up to the COR and have another go round with it. I guess it would depend on the situation, and if I thought the PLC having their day in court with the COR would be beneficial to the learning experience of the boys in the PLC or not.

 

Personally I think the CO should follow the BSA rules, unless it interfers with their religious beliefs, or organizational beliefs and this can be easily proved. If the CO is just using the name, and running something that in no way looks like a BSA program, it is a disservice to not only what BSA stands for, but to the kids in that program who think they are in a BSA program.

 

Not using one of the methods of scouting such as Advancement though is better then using it and "knowingly" altering it to be your own idea which is clearly out of line with BSA's policy. But neither makes a well run troop.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[evmori]

What's in your bylaws?

[Eagle92]

Moose,

While COs do have a major say in what can and cannot be done in their units, they do agree to follow BSA rules and regs, and that includes advancement regs.

 

Trust me you do not want to buck the system on advancement. My district learned that the hard way.

[moosetracker]

Evmori - You sound like that commercial "What's in your wallet".

 

The questionable by-laws were of a different troop I am no longer in. The current troop my son & husband are in (and I was in until recently) I don't think has official by-laws in writing..

 

All I can think of that could be construed as unwritten bylaws are the following:

 

We have known yearly things the troop pays for such as we pay for the admission price of all camporees..

Of the money in the scouts accounts they must use it for scout related events or items. (not to buy soda at the local store.)

Adults need to be fully trained per National in order to take on the role of SM or ASM.

Adults need to be fully trained per National for SM position to stay overnight on a troop event.

Troop will pay for adult training (all but Woodbadge) provided you attend the course (we don't pay if you register for it but do not attend.)

 

That is all I can think of as somewhat of a policy, or by-laws.. I do not think the scouts have made their own by-laws either.

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Twocubdad]

Great discussion. Beyond bylaws, this goes directly to the heart of what it means to be boy-led.

 

I disagree with the point of view that the boys can change the bylaws if they like because "it's their troop." No, it's not. The troop belongs to the Chartered Organization. Everyone else is an invited guest.

 

But more to my point, every unit has different constituencies which have varying levels of influence over how the troop operates -- certainly the Scouts are the main one, but also the adult leaders, committee, parents, COR and Institutional Head, the members of the CO (any troop registered to a church crosses the Women of the Church at its own peril), of course BSA through its various policies and program elements has a tremendous influence on how a troop operates. Even outside groups with no real input should be considered like donors, the pack that feeds the troop, even the community at large.

 

That, all by itself, is a pretty good lesson for the boys. Just because the PLC may change the bylaws doesn't mean they should. Boys need to learn to see beyond their own navels and consider the big picture. It is a well established fact that the part of the brain which allows us to predict consequences doesn't finish grown until about age 20. We need to help them see around corners and understand they don't operate in a vacuum.

 

A simple understanding of power is also a good lesson. "Because the Board of Deacons will throw us out on our collective kiesters," is a pretty good basis for a decision.

 

There are absolutely things the PLC should have primary if not total control over. Say they want to change the troop's standing lights-out time from 10pm to 11:30. Great. Tell me how that will work. But here's a different example: after Troop Leadership Training, we have a movie night lock-in. The rule is movies must be PG-13 or better. The PLC decides wants to change the rule to allow R movies. Most of the boys in the training are 15 or up and everyone's parents allow them to see R movies anyway. There's no BSA policy and no direction from the CO. Purely a troop rule, no doubt handed down by adults at some time in the past.

 

Most teenagers will look at the same way as trying to convince their parents to let them do something. They're not going to consider what happens when the church minister wanders by during exactly the wrong movie scene, or when the parents of the younger Scouts or Cub Scouts hear rumors the troop lets the boys watch "dirty" movies.

 

This isn't a "controlled failure" situation. This is a "interact with an adult of good character" situation. Mainly because the consequences of their decisions won't fall to them. They won't get hauled before the church Session or the Scout Executive. They probably won't see the decline in troop membership when the Cub families start looking elsewhere. In this case the SM needs to share his experience, wisdom and point of view. He should explain the big picture; that as a Scout troop we have higher standards and expectations; and besides if their parents are okay with them watching R-rated movies, they can do that any other time they like, just not with the troop.

 

Back to JMHawkin's OP, how to respond to the PLC which more generally wants to have input into the bylaws: short answer, "It depends on what you want to change." Longer answer: "No one person or group gets to change the bylaws -- not the SM, not the PLC, not the committee. We are all responsible to each other. But let's talk. What do you want to change?"

 

[Beavah]

Yah, not sure what this thread is talkin' about anymore. I think we got hung up on the example, when JMHawkins' question was a broader one.

 

I guess I'm with evmori, eh? What's in your bylaws? That'll give yeh a sense of whether the scouts have a say in that or not. If da bylaws are your CO's rules for volunteer leader selection, then probably not. If yeh use bylaws as a way of teaching the boys about citizenship and they cover things like what da quorum is for a PLC, then the lads should have a lot of say.

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

In advising about by-laws, point out that the ones worth making are ones that won't get thrown out on appeal.

 

Or, to put it another way: "No point in legistlating anything that'll only make a lawyer rich." (No offense, Beav.)

[JMHawkins]

Twocub's point about "a simple understanding of power" is a great one. Made me think of a Shakespear quote: "I too can call spirits from the vastly deep. So can any man. The question is, will they come when you call?" Anyone can claim authority, and anyone with a little authority can try to claim more, but just because you issued a decree doesn't mean anyone will follow you, even if they're technically supposed to. If you wield your authority in ways that are unacceptible to significant stakeholders, you'll probably find yourself with a whole lot less authority soon. A while back on another thread I said something like the corollary to "A Scout is Obedient" is that the people claiming his obedience owe it to him to be worthy of it. Helping the boy leaders learn what it takes to be worthy of the authority they've been entrusted with seems like a great outcome.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Our troop does not have bylaws, but in general I think it's good for the boys to know that any ideas they may have are welcome. Of the two questions that I have asked in every Board of Review that I have chaired is, "Is there anything you would like to change about the troop, and if so, what is it?" Any answer is correct in my view, but I am more impressed when someone has an actual idea for improving something, because it shows he is paying attention to what's going on around him, and now having heard himself say the idea, might take the initiative to actually do it. (Of course, this tends to be more the case with the older boys, the 11 and 12 year olds usually answer "No, everything's great." And by the way, my other universal question is, logically enough, "What is your favorite thing about this troop"? I remember being intrigued at the answers of one boy whose answers to both questions was essentially the same thing, though I don't know if he realized it and I don't recall what they were.)

 

Where was I? Oh. I think the amount of "leeway" (by which I mean the likelihood that a rule proposed by the boys would be accepted by the Troop Committee) would depend on what the subject is. We do have some "rules" and "policies", all of which are unwritten and most of which concern money. I think the boys know there is probably little point in suggesting lower dues, or something like that. I'd like to see the boys come up with an idea for a new and different kind of fundraiser they (underline "they") would like to do, because in my opinion the adults are kind of stuck in a rut on that subject. I guess we also have some rules regarding electronics on camping trips, although I am a little vague on what those rules are these days. (I think electronic games are still prohibited, but cell phones have moved into the "discouraged" category, including the rule of "If you lose it, I don't want to hear about it.") A suggestion from the boys to allow game devices on camping trips probably would not go very far. A suggestion by the boys to BAN cell phones might get a more interested audience, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

One thing that I think would be nipped in the bud is anything that goes against clear BSA policies, such as adding to (or subtracting from) the advancement requirements. Voting to decide who makes Eagle is one of those things. (Our Troop Committee (not the boys) actually does "vote" (really more by consensus) to approve concept plans for Eagle projects, but that is because a committee member (which usually works out to being the advancement coordinator) must sign off on the project plan in the workbook and we want to give the rest of the committee input into whether the idea is acceptable, the basic plan is viable, etc., as well as to give the Scout feedback on how he might his improve his plan, presentation, responses to questions, etc. before he meets with the District Advancement Committee. It also has the benefit of, if the idea is something that we know is just not going to fly with the district (like a blood drive), it's more effective if the boy hears it from several people rather than just one. But I think this is all consistent with the requirements.)

 

In response to one of Beavah's comments, I think it is one thing to let the boys "discover and explore" and another thing to let them spin their wheels and waste time developing and refining ideas that that have absolutely no chance of going anywhere. On advancement ideas in particular, it is difficult enough for adults to really know all the do's and don'ts. Most people don't have a copy of the BSA advancement policies booklet and a lot of people don't even know it exists. If the boys start talking about requiring a vote by the boys on Eagle candidates, I think it is reasonable to show them the "book" and point out why that isn't allowed. If, armed with that information, they then decide to launch a letter-writing campaign to National to try to get the rules changed, more power to them. But lets at least make sure they know what the current rules are before they devote too much time and energy to something that isn't permitted. Another kind-of fanciful example that occurs to me is if the boys who have driver's licenses decide they want to have a Troop Road Race and see who can drive the fastest. Before they start getting into a discussion of where the start and finish lines should be, it's probably better to inform them that this idea isn't happening, and why.