Imprimis

[Kudu]

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others,

 

First Paragraph of 1911 Handbook:

 

"The aim of the Boy Scouts is to supplement the various existing educational agencies, and to promote the ability in boys to do things for themselves and others."

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods

 

First Paragraph of 1911 Handbook:

 

"The METHOD is summed up in the term Scoutcraft, and is a combination of observation, deduction, and handiness, or the ability to do things. Scoutcraft includes instruction in First Aid, Life Saving, Tracking, Signaling, Cycling, Nature Study, Seamanship, Campcraft, Woodcraft, Chivalry, Patriotism, and other subjects."

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Scoutcraft Chapter, page 16:

 

"The requirements of the tenderfoot, second-class scout, and first-class scout, are as follows:"

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

[acco40]

A congressional charter is a law passed by the United States Congress that states the mission, authority and activities of a group. Congress issued federal charters from 1791 until 1992 under Title 36 of the United States Code.

 

The relationship between Congress and the organization is largely a symbolic honorific giving the organization the aura of being "officially" sanctioned by the U.S. government. However Congress does not oversee or supervise organizations with the charter (other than receiving a yearly financial statement). In order to clarify that the chartered organizations are not government entities and not supervised by the government both the House and the Senate in 1990s agreed not to issue additional charters. (I saw this on the internet so it must be true!)

 

So, Kudu, stating that the BSA "violates" a Congressional charter is somewhat of an empty statement.

[Scoutfish]

Look, I'm not taking either side, but....

 

"and other subjects."

 

Kinda leaves that wide open for BSA to teach different styles of patty cake, dress making, car detailing, oragami, yoga, etreme ballet, video game mastery,etc...

 

Well..It lets BSA teach anything it wants!

 

 

"other subjects" is a very vague, broad and undefined subject.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[SeattlePioneer]

The one thing Kudu has proved is that the Congressional charter gives BSA the ownership of "Scouting" and the Chief Scout Executive and BSA get to decide what is to be called Scouting.

 

Kudu actually posted a court decision pretty much to that effect.

 

 

Frankly, I don't see a role for Kudu in that process, no matter how many times he posts a copy of the charter.

 

But it certainly seems to give the Chief Scout Executive authority to set up a Soccer and Scouting program if he wants to do so. Of course, whether that is a good idea is still open to debate on the merits of the idea.

 

But I don't see Kudu playing a key role in such a decision.

[Kudu]

acco40 writes:

 

So, Kudu, stating that the BSA "violates" a Congressional charter is somewhat of an empty statement.

 

Maybe you haven't been reading all the posts.

 

Section 30905. ("Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words") gives the BSA the ability to trademark generic words and images that were already associated with Scouting long before the BSA was invented.

 

The US Rovers, for instance, were served with a cease and desist order because they used a generic fleur-de-lis on their Website!

 

That is correct, Americans can not associate a French fleur-de-lis with an adult camping program, even if they do not use the word "Scout"!

 

"Empty statement," huh?

 

Of course if you think the CSE is a man of great wisdom for flooding membership with a Hispanic soccer program that keeps 12 year-old Scouts out of tents (and presumably on a 1970s-style non-camping path to Eagle) then of course you will be very happy pretending that the Congressional Charter does not forbid American citizens access to alternative Scouting programs based on the methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Ironic, huh?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

[Twocubdad]

That the Charter is valid and legally enforcable -- not just an honorific bestowed by Congress -- because the Wrenn case found the trademark protections of the charter valid, is true enough. But it is not valid to then claim that every clause of the Purpose section is legally enforceable.

 

To make that claim begs the question that if BSA's program has been in violation of the charter for decades, why didn't Wrenn argue that? Wrenn wasn't simply a trademark case, Wrenn was challenging the BSA monopoly on Scouting generally, and trying to establish his YouthScout program. Suing on trademark ground's was BSA's strategy. If Wrenn could have broken the monopoly on program grounds -- or any other grounds -- don't you think he would? Did he just have dumb lawyers, or maybe there was no case there?

 

And with the millions spent by all sorts of organizations suing BSA for dang-near anything they think can stick, why hasn't someone tried suing to void the charter based on non-compliance? More dumb lawyers?

 

Clearly, because there's no beef here. Bringing suit against BSA based on the "purpose" of the congresional charter would be like suing someone based on the Preamble to the Constitution. You better be able to cite something more than "pursuit of happiness". Suing over what may or may not have been common to Scouting in 1916 isn't going anywhere. Actually, based just on the requirements posted here, BSA could make a pretty good argument that they DO use those methods. A reasonable person could compare the requirements and decide that BSA reasonably follows the original program, now 100 years later. First Aid? Check. Camping? Check. Emergency preparedness? Check.

 

BSA's congressional charter is simply a glorified set of incorporation papers. Historically, most organizations with congressional charters were simply the means of incorporation for companies residing in the District of Columbia. At some point Congress gave DC the power to create corporations itself. By 1992, it quit issuing charters completely. And no one puts much stock in the "purpose" section of corporate papers -- I believe the technical term is boilerplate, From a legal standpoint, BSA's purpose is especially anachronistic. The law is full of stuff that simply gets ignored. I once owned a house with restrictions in the deed which prohibited a Jew from ever owning the house and which mandated that negros should enter the house through the back door via the alleyway. Ignored.

 

This may be an in interesting academic debate for a cold winter night, but it's clear that from it's early history BSA has NEVER felt locked in to particular program elements by the charter. Debate the merits of the program one way or the other, but pretty clearly the purpose statement in the charter carries no weight.

[SeattlePioneer]

I give Kudu credit for identifying the limited areas where the Congressional Charter does have some real power ---- court decisions that give BSA ownership of terms such as Scouting.

 

 

Of course that doesn't have anything to do with Kudu's claims about scoutcraft and scouting methods. Those ARE basically symbolic and have never been used to compel BSA to either do certain programs or not do certain programs.

 

Where the Congressional charter has real power it is not relevent to the issues Kudu raises.

 

On the issues Kudu raises (scoutcraft and methods) the charter has no power that has ever been enforced by the courts.

 

I don't suppose we will see Kudu marching into Federal Court asking for an injuction directing BSA to cease and desist from offering Soccer and Scouting programs to Hispanic families and Cub Scouts to large numbers of families across the country. The idea that the courts would act favorably on such a lawsuit is absurd.

 

And if the courts WERE willing to consider such action, there is no doubt that the Congress would rush to update the charter to give the BSA freedom to run Soccer and Scouting, Cub Scouts and perhaps require gay Scoutmasters as well. I wonder if Kudu would like to take credit for that as a legacy?

[dkurtenbach]

Ummm, okay, so a federal statute is meaningless unless there is a court decision giving it teeth. A fascinating view of separation of powers and the checks and balances under the Constitution. Must be the apoplexy induced by reading Kudu's posts. Unfortunately, the energy expended in attacking Kudu's views has caused this discussion to escape Earth's gravity.

 

Dan K.

[SeattlePioneer]

Why yes, Dan. Kudu's relentlessly bitter attacks in the "Soccer and Scouting" thread HAS led me to reply in kind to Kudu's favorite topic.

 

Being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind" is nice strictly on it's own merits. But it's also a way of getting through life without making unnecessary enemies and opponents.

 

Kudu's style has caused me to be a motivated opponent of his views, which didn't have to happen. But perhaps he likes that and it gives him a chance to repeat his views just that many additional times per day. Hard to say.

[dkurtenbach]

I was a frequent contributor/poster in the early days of the "Scouting Community," BSA's attempt at a social networking site on MyScouting. Three things effectively killed that effort, which was small but encouraging. One was a technology "upgrade" that effectively blew up the forums and groups. The second was one fellow who made it his business to attack anyone whose views differed from his, and to just keep at it until he "won" the shouting match. The third was another fellow who made it his business to strike back at the first fellow and match him post for post. It quickly became impossible to hold any discussions there at all because as soon as one posted something on a topic, the other jumped in and that was the end of any productive exchanges -- the bitterness drove everyone else away.

 

As a local preacher here likes to say, "Not a sermon, just a thought."

 

Dan K.

[Twocubdad]

No, Dan, you have it backwards. Based on results, most folks either don't care or are comfortable with how the charter is being interpreted. Only after you fall through the looking-glass of this thread is the charter not being followed. The federal courts are available to those who disagree with the intrepretation, use and/or enforcement of a statute. That's an option to anyone who feels BSA is ignoring it's federal charter. Seattle has asked a couple times but no one has been able to cite a case where anyone has taken that position.

 

Unfortunately, the energy expended in attacking Kudu's views has caused this discussion to escape Earth's gravity.

 

That's got to be the most ironic thing I've every read. The energy WE are expending?

 

And while I hear what you're saying, I don't think this thread is going to lead to the downfall of the forums. Scouter Terry has been pretty smart in structuring the forums in a couple ways. First, he allows folks to blow off steam through the Issues and Politics forum. You'll never find anything like that on a BSA site. Secondly, he has made it very easy to ignore threads and even individual you don't care to read. And we've survived much more zealous posters in the past. Heck, there used to be a guy who had two screen names and would argue with himself? He was eventually banned -- several times, as a matter of fact.

[mc99218]

"Oh, the magic of the campfire! No unkind feeling long withstands its

glow. For men to meet at the same campfire is to come closer, to have

better understanding of each other, and to lay the foundations of

lasting friendship. "He and I camped together once!" is enough to

explain all cordiality between the men most wide apart, and Woodcraft

days are days of memories happy, bright and lifelong."

 

from 2 little savages...America's own boy scout hand book by e.seton

 

all scouting is local

 

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

 

 

[packsaddle]

That book is a great memory from my own youth. Thanks for mentioning it.