Imprimis

[Twocubdad]

I think we're in violent agreement, desertrat. I'm not suggesting we turn the program into a home economics/life skills class, but neither should be we be 1910 Scouting reinactors or even a modern-day camping club. If all we're about is outdoor adventure, then, as you say, there are plenty of other groups offering that, too.

 

But when we start talking about those things in which we want the boys to be truely proficient and to carry with them for a lifetime, it gives me pause to consider the big picture. I'm not sure knot tying is going to make my A list.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are scoutcraft skills in which I want my Scouts to be proficient -- certainly first aid, cooking, the ability to read a map. But I really see no reason to spend a lot of time retesting lashing, or particularly to resurrect retired skills from the past. While those may be fun -- my guys love building fires with flint and steel -- let's leave them in the category of fun things, not core skills to be retested again and again.

[desertrat77]

Twocubdad, I too think that formal retesting would be a burden in many ways.

 

However, if I had my druthers, I would prefer scoutcraft to be a) given more priority and respect and b) taught from the standpoint of it being a necessary part of being a scout now and in the future, whether the scout be first class rank or Eagle.

 

Sometimes I see scout skills taught as "demo one time and done." I don't think this serves scouting or the scout or the public's perception of the BSA well.

 

Though I had some rocky roads as a scout (difficulty learning some skills, bully leaders poorly teaching same), I benefited from the example of some superb senior scouts and adult scouters who, without bureaucracy or beating me over the head, showed they could still shine in any skill set a scout could demonstrate. Their competency and confidence really made an impact, and I did my best to learn those scout skills as a permanent thing, to attempt to follow in their footsteps. Scouting credentials, if you will.

 

As for the old-old-old school skills? Gosh, I admit to liking those things--morse code and the like. Wouldn't hurt to give scouts some experience with morse code, if only for historic perspective. I think the throw-back MBs are a good thing, would like to see more.

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't think we want the 1911 version of scouting. I know I don't. One of my Christmas presents this year is Applewood Bucks reprint of the 1911 Boy Scouts of America Official Handbook for Boys. I paged through the thing and have begun to read it in earnest. I found this interesting, the first two chapters were Scoutcraft and Woodcraft and the title of Chapter 3 is Campcraft. Chapter 3 starts on page 145 and on page 153 there is a paragraph on Leadership, it reads:

 

The most important thing about a camping party is that it should always have the best of leadership. No group of boys should go camping by themselves. The first thing a patrol of scouts should do when it has determined to camp' is to insist upon the scout master accompanying the members of the patrol. The reason for this that there is less likely to be accidents of the kind.that will break up your camp and drive you home to the town or city. When the scout master is one of the party, all of the boys can go in swimming when the proper time comes for such exercise, and the scout master can stay upon the bank or sit in the boat for the purpose of preventing arcidents by drowning. There are also a hundred and one things which will occur in a camp when the need of a man's help will show' itself. A scout ought to insist on his scout master going to camp. The scout master and patrol leader should be present, in order to settle the many questions which must of necety arise so that there may be no need of differences or quarrels over disputed points, which would be sure to spoil the outing

 

In 1911 the BSA did not want patrols camping alone? Without an adult? The dumbing down of the BSA sure started much sooner that 1972. When did patrol outings start anyway? It wasnt part of the original program. I hope that innovation hangs around

 

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

on page 153 there is a paragraph on Leadership...The dumbing down of the BSA sure started much sooner that 1972.

 

Yes, the term "Leadership" usually indicates that whatever follows is dumbed down and anti-Baden-Powell

 

This is why the YMCA was so desperate to secure a monopoly on "Scouting" in the United States. They were in "violent disagreement" with Baden-Powell over two of his most important principles: 1) Scouting is the opposite of school (no homework Merit Badges), and 2) The Patrol Leaders run the Troop (literally: no "Troop Committee" of parents).

 

The BSA's first bogus "Modern Leadership" theory was called the "Six Principles of Boy Work:"

 

The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader...

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

The fact that James West threw out "modern Leadership" and hired William Hillcourt proves just what a difference a good Chief Scout Executive could make now, a hundred years later.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Twocubdad]

So now I'm confused, Kudu.

 

Are you advocating for teaching Scoutcraft skill in common use in 1916, per the Congressional charter, or the Scoutcraft skills you think should have been in common use in 1916 had the BSA adopted BPs program wholesale?

 

 

[dkurtenbach]

Twocubdad wrote: "Are you advocating for teaching Scoutcraft skill in common use in 1916, per the Congressional charter, or the Scoutcraft skills you think should have been in common use in 1916 had the BSA adopted BPs program wholesale?"

 

The Congressional Charter does not say anything about teaching the Scoutcraft skills in common use in 1916. It says that BSA is to use the training methods in common use in 1916 to train boys in Scoutcraft.

 

Dan K.

[mc99218]

musings

 

reading the language of sec 30902 one might suspect that the congress was out to corral parlour scouting tendencies already sprouting in Europe and other adult deviations like classroom dicta , etc

 

just a thought

 

all scouting is local

 

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

 

 

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

[dkurtenbach]

Interestingly, section 30902 does _not_ specify that the "methods in common use" be those of Boy Scouts _in the United States_; it says "in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." Thus we need NOT be troubled by any peculiar American notions that were contrary to Baden-Powell's methods (_the_ methods in common use by boy scouts).(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

[moosetracker]

OGE your book is 1911.. Maybe between 1911 & 1916 they decided to do away with the adults...

 

So we can pick a BSA method in common use at the time of June 15, 1916 From any country??

Seems to me since it is a USA Charter it is assumed the USA BSA program.. True it was left out so you can interpret how you want, but being a USA charter I think they would have specified a different country had they not assumed USA.. But yes I know what ASS-U-ME stands for.. What a mighty big loophole they left in that.. To state a specific date right down to the very day, and not specify the country of the policy you were to follow.

[OldGreyEagle]

Aw Moosetracker, no comment on the Bert and I reference? I thought for sure you would say something

[dkurtenbach]

"using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916"

 

Not just any methods; "the" methods. A particular set of methods. Not just used occasionally or used here or there; in "common" use. Familiar to all. Not just any particular sub-group of Boy Scouts; "boy scouts." Boy Scouts generally.

 

So, what were "the" methods "in common use" by "boy scouts" on June 15, 1916? Well, this was just nine years after the Brownsea experiment and eight years after publication of _Scouting For Boys_. Scouting was spreading like wildfire around the world. B-P was very much alive and active in the movement he founded and continuing to write about how Boy Scouting is supposed to be done and how it is not supposed to be done. See, e.g., http://www.usscouts.org/history/BPoutlook1.asp. Others may disagree, but it seems obvious to me that "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916" means the methods of training and teaching boys that had been popularized and continued to be promoted by Baden-Powell to Scouts around the world -- the methods that had triggered the explosive growth of Scouting.

 

And surely Congress was aware that Boy Scouting was an international phenomenon ignited by a famous British general.

 

Dan K.

[Kudu]

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others,

 

First Paragraph of 1911 Handbook:

 

"The aim of the Boy Scouts is to supplement the various existing educational agencies, and to promote the ability in boys to do things for themselves and others."

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods

 

First Paragraph of 1911 Handbook:

 

"The METHOD is summed up in the term Scoutcraft, and is a combination of observation, deduction, and handiness, or the ability to do things. Scoutcraft includes instruction in First Aid, Life Saving, Tracking, Signaling, Cycling, Nature Study, Seamanship, Campcraft, Woodcraft, Chivalry, Patriotism, and other subjects."

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes:

 

that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Scoutcraft Chapter, page 16:

 

"The requirements of the tenderfoot, second-class scout, and first-class scout, are as follows:"

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[SeattlePioneer]

I notice that once again Kudu resorts to his own interpretations of the Scout charter.

 

 

Where are the authoritative decisions of Federal courts on this issue of what the "methods of Scouting" may be?

 

Absent such decisions, the lanugauge Kudu quotes is just good intentions and good wishes by the Congress, rather than the straight jacket Kudu prefers.

 

The one meaningful decision Kudu did point out was that the BSA owns the term "Scouting." That means that Kudu isn't the owner or interpreter of Scouting, but rather that it is the BSA and the Chief Scout Executive that is entitled to make authoritative pronouncements on what Scouting means and involves.

 

Frankly, Kudu is just a Parlor Scout on this issue. He lacks any legal expertise, and has no on point court opinions to support his biases.

 

As a practical matter, the Congressional charter delegated decisions on Scouting to the BSA, which has been making those decisions on behalf of American Scouting for a hundred years now.

 

Those are the facts of life which Kudu doesn't want to recognize.

[Kudu]

 

 

http://kudu.net/outdoor/activities/soccer.htm

[SeattlePioneer]

Another point from Kudu which has no point.