Apologies Under Compulsion

[SeattlePioneer]

Another thread is discussing the discipline of a Scout for bad behavior. The troop leaders are requiring that the Scout apologize, and the Scout refuses to do so.

 

 

Personally, I'm opposed to requiring that people apoligize as a condition of a discpline process. If someone behaves badly, they should receive appropriate punishment for their bad behavior, but not ordered to make an apology.

 

It may be that the person feels the discipline was wrong or mistaken. Perhaps they are in fact "not guilty" and perhaps they are actually innocent.

 

Nothing is gained by compelling an apology if the person is not contrite.

 

And if the person decides their behavior was bad or mistaken, they can volunteer an apology they mean as part of the process of making amends.

 

But let's leave the disciplined person the dignity of not agreeing with the decision rendered if they don't agree with it.

 

That's my theory, anyway.

[Beavah]

I think if you've hurt someone, your first duty is to be sorry for hurting them.

 

Then your second duty is to apologize to them.

 

Leastways, if yeh want 'em to forgive you, welcome you back, and treat you as a friend again.

 

Just apologizing isn't enough, either. Yeh also have to make them whole. If yeh "borrowed" their tools without asking and broke one, yeh apologize and you replace the broken tool. If yeh got Mrs. Beavah angry by being a doofus, yeh apologize and yeh also buy her flowers or take her out for a night on the town.

 

I think it's just fine to teach kids that. To teach 'em to be sorry for hurting other people, even if they didn't intend it. To teach 'em to apologize to other people when they are in the wrong... and even sometimes when they're just sorry that they've harmed a relationship. And to teach 'em to work to "make it up to" the other person for their mistake.

 

In fact, I can't see doin' anything else.

 

Yah, yah, in criminal law our objective is just to punish, eh? We really don't care much about apologies. But raisin' kids is not about criminal law. It's about values and other things.

 

Of course a lad is free to not apologize, and he shouldn't apologize if he isn't in the least sorry. The Great Scoutmaster gave us all free will. But in that case, I can't see there's any reason why the volunteers who he hurt need to have him around. The consequences for not being sorry for hurtin' others are that you lose friends and access to opportunities. Or other things, at their parents' discretion

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Proud Eagle]

Apologies without any contrition are of no value at all, and are essentially a lie.

 

That does not mean that apologizing should not be encouraged. Many times a person will know they have done wrong but lacks the will or courage or what have you to admit that and then to face the person they have wronged and apologise. Thus adding some external compulsion to get them to make an apology can be in order in certain circumstances, but not all.

 

If a person rejects completely that they have wronged someone, it is of no use to have them apologize, and will be counter productive to force it.

[clemlaw]

When I read the thread title, I couldn't help but think of the scene from a movie (I can't remember which one it was) where someone was being held upside down out a window, ready to be dropped to his death. He was saying, "I apologize unreservedly".

 

My son's kindergarten teacher had a rule that students were required to say they were sorry, _even if they weren't_.

 

That rule actually worked pretty well in kindergarten. But I generally agree with Seattle that it works less and less well, the more you try to compell the apology.

 

If this post has caused offense to anyone, I hereby apologize unreservedly.

[Twocubdad]

Kids need to be taught how to apologize.

 

"Apologize to your brother!."

 

"Sor-ry."

 

Doesn't really get it.

 

Any number of times I've taken the opportunity to teach my boys and kids in the troop how to apologize. I'll spell out what I expect: Apologize, say what you did wrong, explain why it was wrong, promise not to do it again, then apologize again "Bob, I'm really sorry I punched you in the mouth. When you put my hampster in the microwave I really got angry and let my emotions get the better of me. I need to learn to control my temper and will do my best not to let it happen again. I sincerely apologize for that and for scratching your new Boston album." (Not that there's any personal baggage here or anything.)

 

They may be lying through their teeth and really wish they had broken the little snot's nose, but they have at least had to think about what they did and maybe learned a little something. It may take 30 years, but you never know when one of these little kernels will resurface.

 

More practically, if I'm dealing with boys in the troop, the apology needs to come before we consider any ramifications. A sincere apology, demonstrated contrition and remorse and certainly restitution if appropriate (and quite frankly the parents' attitude toward the whole situation) will have a great deal of bearing on the final outcome

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Twocub,

 

 

Your post illustrates the problem I have with apologies made under compulsion.

 

A kid who put a live animal in a microwave oven is committing a crime around here. Adults who did that would go to jail.

 

Frankly, if I were a kid who saw another boy put the hamster in the microwave, I would probably be legally and morally justified to punch him in the mouth to prevent the appliance from being turned on.

 

I like your method of teaching boys HOW to manke an apology, but that just illustrates why no apology should be made in your hypothetical situation. The person acting in an evil way was the boy putting the animal in the oven and that would be hard to hide by making your kind of formal apology, don't you think?

 

The boy who did the punching might well have my support and respect and that would go double if he refused to knuckle under to a mistaken action by an adult leader and refused to apologize.

Doing that would require bravery on the part of the boy.

 

The kid who was doing the microwaving might deserve a referral to a psychiatrist for an evaluation.

[moosetracker]

Reminds me of when my son attacked a kid on the playground in middle school.. Well he was expelled for 2 days, and had to write an appology when he returned to school.

 

Well my son also did not want to appologize.. The fact was that he was bullyed by the kid and his friends for over two years. Punched, hit, spit at etc. He took the abuse.. What set him off that day was the bullies did not go after him, but his friend. So he stood up for his friend. Of course as is the case with most bullies when he got a dose of his own medicine he cried and went running to a teacher.

 

So he struggled with the letter of appology. I read it, and hoped it would pass the schools approval. It did. But it was the best he could do and still be sincere.

 

This was years ago.. But I remember something like..

 

"I am sorry I attacked you, because it this is your way, not mine. I know how you make me feel when you do it to me, and I really don't want to become like you.

 

I will though protect my friends and myself from now on, by telling a teacher when you attack any of us.. So I would suggest that you leave me and my friends alone, and I will gladly do the same thing..

 

 

 

And, yes, he was not bothered by these bullies again.

 

 

But personally if I am doling out the punishment.. No I will not consider an appology to be something I will force as part of the condition..

 

Either appologize if you believe it is necessary, or you are really teaching nothing.. I do though agree with ProudEagle, and I will try to encourage it, if I think it may be fear or pride that is keeping the kid from saying the words, but they truely do want to..

[Twocubdad]

Um, S.P., dude, the hampster thing was a joke, a silly illustration of the point. I know you guys in Seattle are really big into coffee, but maybe you need to cut back. (That was a joke too.)

 

And Moose, your situation goes well beyond the need for an apology. Lot of issues there. But have been an opportunity to teach your son the art of the non-apology apology, as in, "I'm sorry you're a $^@@%*&@!" (That, I was serious about.)

 

 

[Scoutfish]

It totally and completely depends on te specific situation.

 

In the case of the spun thread... which basically boils down to: Person "A"s not happy with a job that person "B" assigned on a general basis and says that it's a dumb job.

Person "C" overhears and is personally offended and feel disrespected even though:

 

1) Nobody actualy said anything against or towards persn "B".

2)The complaint was about the general job and not any paerson.

3) Person "C"was not a party to, implicated, referenced ,or in any way associated with what person "A" was discussing other than just overhearing a partial conversation.

 

In this specific situation, I would not have a forced an apology to anybody much less person "C". In fact, i I was to suggest anybody needs to apologize, I'd have person "C" making the apology.

[5scoutmom]

I am the mother and OP on the other post being discussed here.

 

To clarify, my son was willing to apologize for hurting "Person C's" feelings, although he expressed confusion about why C's feelings would be hurt by receiving an honest answer to a question he asked. What he was not willing to do was take back the opinion he expressed when one was demanded of him. He made the crack about washing the dishes to his brother (person B). Person C asked him what he said and he repeated it. Person C said "I gave that instruction. Don't you respect me?" My son said "No, I don't. Respect is earned, not conferred." That is the comment that got him expelled. He would never have made that comment had person C (an adult) not goaded him into it.

 

My son did apologize to Person C's son for hurting his feelings by insulting his dad, although sadly (and not unexpectedly) a serious fracture has been put into their long term friendship (which existed despite my son's feelings about his friend's dad, which had never been expressed before that moment). The loss of Person C's son's friendship, which I have not mentioned before, is a serious and lasting consequence of my son's actions and is one of the things he does regret about the incident.

 

Scoutfish - I really appreciate your take on this. I do believe an apology was necessary for the hurt, but I could not force my son to take back the honest expression of his feelings and the adults involved were unwilling to accept less than both, although as I said in my last and final post on the other topic - I do wish it had turned out differently.

 

I do believe in the power of apology, if sincere. I was also faced with the situation of my son (not this one) being in a fight at school with a bully. I refused to agree to have my son write an apology letter to the bully although I did have him thank and apologize to the boy who tried to defend him and was also suspended for fighting. He never got an apology from the bully.

 

and, scoutfish - several people have suggested to me that Person C should apologize to my son. I would not ask that and my son does not think it is needed, either.

 

Thank you.

[SeattlePioneer]

Twocub dad,

 

 

***** ------------- THIS IS A JOKE!!!! ----------- ***********

 

 

(Joke)

 

 

******* ------------ END OF JOKE!!!! ----------- ***********

 

 

 

I saw no reason to take your hypothetical as anything other than as being serious. Then you complain when I take your post seriously?

 

 

 

********** ------------- THIS IS A JOKE! --------- **********

 

 

I demand one of your apologies!

 

 

************ ----------- END OF JOKE! ---------- ************

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

clemlaw ... from "A Fish Called Wanda" ...

 

Archie (John Cleese), being dangled out a window: I'm really really sorry. I apologize unreservedly.

 

Otto (Kevin Kline): You take it back?

 

Archie: I do. I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.

[evmori]

Interesting topic. We all have bad behavior from time to time. Do we always apologize for it? No. Should we? I think it depends on what that bad behavior is. If you physically injure someone, an apology should be expected. If you burp in someones face, not necessarily.

[Lisabob]

Here's another twist. In scouting, we teach by example. Do the adults in you unit feel a need to apologize to the scouts when the adults are clearly in the wrong or have hurt a scout's feelings?

 

Because if not, then many of the boys will (perhaps rightly) see this as just another power game. Adults make boys apologize for stuff but don't hold themselves to the same standard.

 

That doesn't teach people to have empathy or manners and it may reduce trust, respect, and sincerity all around.

[dkurtenbach]

You always hear about people demanding an apology, particularly when some celebrity or politician makes a public gaffe. An offended person demanding an apology isn't about reconciliation, it is about winning the argument -- an apology in that context is not really an apology, but an admission of guilt or a surrender.

 

Yes, we have to teach our young people that when they have done something wrong, an apology, together with making things right, is appropriate. But the point of an apology is a personal reaching out to the other party, not an element of punishment.

 

Dan K.