Scouting As A Program For Adults

[Hawkrod]

BrentAllen, I am trying to be polite here. I am not talking about a boy who has a choice about what he is doing, I am talking about boys that have said they want to participate, who when they are allowed to show up, have a good time but are not allowed because the parents have other plans but when it is the parent doing something it becomes their "duty". People who have committed to do something and then don't because they were asked to do something else by somebody outside of the unit after they have already made the committment. An example would be a Pack trainer that sets up Balloo for the unit but then cancels (repeatedly) to go conduct training for another unit in another District (again, I am trying to be polite and succinct). I have spoken to these boys numerous times and the boys have expressed that they miss being with us. It is the parent not letting the boy participate not the boy declining to participate. Also note that although these people say they abide by the Scout Oath and Law, have had charges of unScoutlike conduct lodged by dozens of adult leaders and parents. One of them is even on probation for YP violations. I guess I was not expressing myself well enough when I was trying to get my point accross, sorry.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[moosetracker]

I see where Hawkrod is coming from, and also where everyone disagreeing is coming from..

 

Maybe this story from our troop would give some light..

 

Our troop had a wonderful SM, enthusiatic, running a great program etc.. One thing that he was hard on was his scoutson who was not totally angelic.. But, the SM expected better of his son, because as he felt he had to set a great example so to did scoutson.. So if 3 people were talking while there was announcements about when to met or what to bring for a comming event.. Scoutson got reamed by the SM, and the other two would just get a "ditto to you two" type of comment.. Not totally nasty, but just a normal parent who his son is too close so alot of times a parent will be too lienent with his son, or too hard in order to show no favortism, but getting that totally as fair with son as all other kids is hard to do..

 

Any way one day SM comes into committee and say I am done I quit.. Who wants SM position.. Out he goes and he kindof becomes a drop of parent for a few months.. But, son still comes to scouts.. Maybe 6 months later he comes back in, but when asked to do anything he declines.. About a year later, he thinks about it, and say "Well, I will ask my son, and if it is ok with him, I will do this project for you..."

 

So what happened to SM... Son talked to dad and said something like "Dad, I am having no fun in scouts with you being SM.. I belive I would like to quit.."..

 

So Dad drops out of scouts, to allow son to continue with scouts..

 

 

Hawkrod.. Does this story kindof sum up what you are trying to say.. Only maybe in your version Father stays in and son drops out??

[Hawkrod]

Pretty close but these parents have become District/Council involved and pulled their sons out of units to "Lone Scout" (yes, I know, it is not allowed if there is a unit available but these people are manipulators!). The boys really want to be in a unit but are not allowed. The parents claim other boys picked on them etc... but when I talk to the boys (at non-Scout events) and their parents are not around the boys have told me how much they miss it. For these people, Scouting has become their life at the cost of their boys programs. The one I removed from my Pack was a den leader and would have meetings in her home while her boy would go to his room. BTW, that boy was arrested at 7yo for felony vandalism, the parent was not concerned with the boy, she was concerned with being a Scout leader.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[BrentAllen]

Hawkrod,

In your initial post, you said the boys were staying home playing video games. That didn't sound like they were being kept from Scouting events due to their parents other obligations. I have never seen the type of behavior you are describing from adults. I've seen the opposite, where parents push their kids to advance when the boy wants to take things slower and have more fun. I've never seen Scouters who kept their sons out of activities. Sounds to me like there are more issues going on than described, but what do I know.

[Hawkrod]

Yes, there is a lot more going on but I was trying to make a minor point rather than have it turn into this long drawn out thread.

 

My real point was that you have to look at the volunteers and if they have sons "in the program" who are not participating but the parents are there for anything at the drop of a hat you have to look deeper and see if there is a reason why the boys are not benefiting. If the boys don't want to be there then ask why. If it because they really don't like Scouts then okay but when a boy says he wants to but can't because his mom is staffing another class or conduction another meeting then maybe the parent has missed the mark. If the boy says he really doesn't like Scouts you may want to probe even further because if the parent has failed to sell their own child on the program what is their value system? If the kid just hates camping (I have had that) and that is what the parent and the unit "always do" then okay. There will always be some adults who's interests are along Scout lines who's children really are not of a like mind. Okay fine but I have met some in the last few years who really have shown me that the kids are not the priority for them. I have met the kids and talked with them and what they say is very different from the stories their parents tell the public.

[ScoutNut]

Kids don't always tell the truth about home (or Scout) situations, and neither do parents.

 

You can't just generalize and say that "if the parent has failed to sell their own child on the program what is their value system". Parents can not, or at least should not, have to force their children to participate in any program. Even those the parents really like, and find value in. It tends to make more problems in the long run.

 

If the parent is a good trainer, or staff member, or Commissioner, or because of their volunteering a program is put on by Council that might otherwise not have been, how can you say they are in it for only themselves, and not the youth members? The volunteers they are training, the programs they are staffing, the units they are helping, is all helping the youth in Scouting get a better program in the long run.

 

So what if their son is not participating the way that you would like. He is not your son. There might very well be issues at home that you, not being a member of the family, are not privy to.

 

As long as a volunteer does a good job, their personal priorities are none of your concern.

 

 

[dkurtenbach]

I am often asked why I am still active in Scouting when my sons are grown and gone. I don't have any profound or altruistic answer; I just say, "Scouting is my hobby." Yes, it is a great program for youth, but I (and many other Scouters, I'm sure) don't stay involved because of Scouting's educational and character-building aspects. I stay involved because it is fun. It is fun working with the boys. It is fun going camping and hiking. It is fun hanging out with a bunch of great Scouters. It is fun being on forums like this. And when it is no longer fun, no longer a hobby, I'll leave.

 

Dan K.

[mc99218]

musings

 

adults are bringing serious evolvemental problems to a boy's game....

 

it must be stopped

 

for starters

 

Take all adult leaders out of the uniform except the Scoutmasters

 

Keep all other adult poohbahs at administrative and invitational status only.

 

Restore the Court of Honor to the PLC and patrol scouts.

Dump SM conferences for boys

Institute a mandatory annual SMC for parents and scout.

Institute a bi-regional rotating camporee cycle so the hoi poloi of scouts can commiserate without bankrupting their family budgets.

Purge, Reorganize and empower the Commissioners as the spokepersons and enforcers of the "scouting program"...

 

 

or we will continue to wonder why they leave....

 

all scouting is local

 

respectfully but seriously submitted

 

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

[Hawkrod]

As I have noted, there are other issues. These people have had a common issue that I think (maybe I am wrong but so be it) has created my perception. These people have told lies, misrepresented things, back stabbed, sullied names and so much more. You do not get 30 plus parents and leaders to write letters to the District staff and the SE if you are doing a good job. I will admit that over half of the letters came from out units but more than a third came from members of other units that were present when problems occured and they blame us as these people were members of our unit when many of these issues occured. We did not solicit these letters and calls to the SE and DE but they were brought to us because I am the COR. Also note that even a National employee came to us because one of these people falsified knot paperwork for the other and signed it off. The problems are numerous and I am sorry I said anything but these issues will cloud my opinion for a long time to come. When confronted on these issues they always have a really good story but I know they are lies as the stories change depending on who they are being told to. Fortunately these people do not realize that nobody trusts them anymore and so we all end up hearing all the versions. Yes, it is really bad and that is why I came to the forums in the first place, I was seeking help in trying how to resolve all of this. Unfortunately it got big enough that all the Districts now know about it and the SE has had some conversations.

[Mama Lope]

I have a lot to say here, First off I personally know about this situation as Hawkrod and I are a part of the same council.

 

Hawkrod- I have been watching your posts and it seems to me that you have a real issue with these particular people, the problem here is that you are not being completely truthful, now are you? You stated that one of these leaders is currently on Probation for a YP issue. We both know that is not that case. This whole Quest you are on is a total case of sour grapes. The leaders you are slandering have left your unit on their own free will because while your unit might be the leader in district popcorn sales you are also the leader in registration prices a whopping $180 for a year of Cub Scouting( same for 6 month Webelos 2 program, figure that?) which does NOT include den dues or events, including pinewood derby or blue and gold. Not to mention a POPCORN buy out of $300, could be why your sales are so high?, I could go on and on about the real reasons you are gunning for these leaders. You charge the scouts for leader training as part of their registration when you said so yourself in your last post that all your leaders are not completely trained. So why are you charging families for training your leaders are not receiving? Not to mention your units leadership receives an annual KICKBACK for their time served as Volunteers! Did you mention that at the time these particular leaders left, you were the UC and the COR for a unit that your own kids are a part of or that your wife is the Committee Chair? Where are the checks and balances there?what did you pay to register your scouts? NOTHING! Because your "committee Chair" sets the Percentages of the "kickbacks" and sets hers at 100%. your own boys scout for free on the backs of the other families that pay outrageous fees to be "in" your units. These leaders had the right to question these practices. And when they did, you attacked; you lied to the district key 3, and bullied others to lie for you. The district found no merit in your accusations, so you went to Council with a bogus YP claim that was again shot down because it was a ridiculous lie. So what are you doing now, blasting to the internet, perhaps someone will listen to you? Liars never win. Move on, we are starting to see the egg on your face.

You claim to be the victim, but why is it that your unit has gone from 100 youth to 38 in a year and a half? Why dont you focus all that UC knowledge and do your COR job and fix your failing unit instead of taking the time to slander other Volunteers to discredit them. Or it that your plan? Keep the spotlight on these two and own blemishes hidden.

This original thread was about Adults in Scouting, how about a scout leader that interrupts a training instructor every 5 minutes, and shows off his accordion style portfolio of his training cards in the middle of an RSO training! Scouting can become someones life, this is true, could it be the guy who boasts that his kid will be a 13 yr old Eagle that went to 6 or 7 camps in one summer?!! Let the kid play a video game once in a while. Could it be the case of the father living through the Son? You claim that your Kids are forced to go and do more than they probably would on their own. Letting a 12 year old be a staff member at a camp is against the BSA Policy. Camp staff must be at least 14 years of age, am I correct? As far as the claim against Lone Scouting, you are in dire need of a lesson on policy, so being a true UC I will give it to you. Directly from the Lone Scouting counselor handbook:

 

Circumstances in the life of a boy which may make Lone

Scouting a desired option include:

Boys being home schooled whose parents do not want them in a youth group

Children of American citizens who live abroad

Exchange students away from the United States for a year or more

Boys with disabilities that may prevent them from attending regular meetings of packs and troops

Boys in rural communities who live far from a Scouting unit

Sons of migratory farm workers

Boys who attend night schools or boarding schools

Boys who have jobs that conflict with troop meetings

Boys whose families frequently travel, such as circus families, families who live on boats, and so on

Boys who alternate living arrangements with parents who live in different communities

Boys who are unable to attend unit meetings because of life-threatening communicable diseases

Boys whose parents believe their child might be endangered in getting to Scout unit meetings

 

Although the Lone Scout might miss the opportunity to participate in activities in the pack or troop, there are certain advantages to his experience. For example, his Scouting activities can be done entirely at home. Boys who live in rural areas have the outdoors close at hand where much of Scouting takes place. Each boy can progress at his own pace, building upon his own interests and abilities. Also, he has the personal help of an adult counselor

 

So there you have it, there is no rule stating that you cannot be a Lone Scout. Are these boys home schooled? Are there parents divorced? Are there custody court orders that you know nothing about? Do you know for sure their home situations? or any of the above? You admit to having conversations with these youth without their parents knowledge. That by itself is shady in my book, if you have an issue with the parent why are you having conversations with the sons without the parents knowledge?

As far as the charges against these leaders for unscoutlike behavior, isnt it unscout like to agree to follow a rule and then break it just a few hours after? Isnt that what you did? By agreeing to drop this non sense in a district meeting with the key three and then a few hours later post here all your lies?

 

You commented about a leader having a den meeting while her own boy was in his room. Unless you were at this Leaders house listening in on her den meeting, how would you know where her boy was? What if he didnt finish his homework or chores, was the leader supposed to cancel the den meeting and disappoint the whole den for her own boys mistake, you dont have all the facts now do you?

 

 

I really want to clarify to all the other Scouters that posted on this thread, that was NOT originated by Hawkrod that it certainly became all about him and his issue with these leaders, can anyone say Vendetta? This is not even the first post that became a rant about these same two leaders and how bad they are. He just makes it all about him and his quest for attention. How many times can he claim to be taken out of context? How many times can he be misinterpreted? He is just bitter that he got caught in lies so he will continue to lie. Maybe if he repeats it enough he might actually believe it himself?

 

One more question for you all. How does this fit in with the Scout Law?

How is this Helpful? How is this Kind? How is this living the Law we try to instill in the children we touch through scouting? He claimed in another thread that these leaders and he were OA members. How it is this Cheerful Service or Brotherhood? And perhaps more importantly, how does this serve the boys? You also stated in a different thread that these two nominated eachother for OA as Cub Leaders? I know for an absolute fact that these two particular individuals did not in fact nominate each other but were "recommended" for nomination by the Lodge Adviser. call him, ask. A nomination for OA must be signed by by the Chapter Adviser and the District chairman, you could probably ask them if you are so concerned.

 

you are full of it and the word on you is getting out.......

 

MAMA LOPE

 

[moosetracker]

I am guessing that Mama Lope is maybe the person Hawkrod was discussing.. Hawkrod unfortunatly tried to make a point abstractly, but got narrowed into more specifics as people were confused by it, but still did not personally attack anyone as noone knew of who he was refering to.. ML has gotten personal to one specific poster..

 

I would suggest the thread be closed before it gets worse in the personal attacks. Time for moderator cleanup.

[Basementdweller]

I was a youth of the sixty and seventies and my father chose fraternal organizations over his family. I several threads I made note that the SM was more my dad than my biological father.

 

He was and is a member of the masonic lodge, shriners, kiwanis, lions, rotary and his professional organizations. He was also member of some speaking club that the name eludes me now.

 

He was little more than a provider and had next to zero impact on who I am today. It was my mother who put me in scouting and made sure I got to the meetings and such. Thx mom

 

 

Probably why I try so hard with my kids.

[Hawkrod]

moosetracker, yes, I was trying to be both vague and abstract as I knew that eventually this would happen and I was not trying to air this here but air my experience and what I came away with from it. It is certainly possible that I was wrong about the OA nominations and if that is the case then I apologize profusely as that was not my intent and I may have misinterpreted what the LA said but other than that I can absolutely document and prove everything else I have said and would not have written it had I not had paperwork in my posesssion to support what I have written or had been first hand to some of this. So no, there is no slander or libel. Just because you do not like something does not make it slander or libel, being false makes it that and I can prove that all that I have written is true just unappetizing.

 

Yes, it is true, that I am the COR and my wife is the CC (She was the CC when the IH assigned me, not the other way around, she was assigned by the previous COR who I did not know at the time). Yes, our unit volunteers receive a registration offset for the time they spend but beyond that not much is factual. For example, I and my children pay 100% of the full fee and always have. Although some of the other unit leaders do take advantage of the offset we have always had the ability to pay and so have done so as do others. Also note that the CC did not set the amounts as that was a decision of the committee at the annual planning meeting. This person apparently is not aware that we have a very strong IH and the operation of the unit is by committee. The CC does not even vote in committee.

 

As far as leader training, yes, the unit will pay for most training for a leader in our unit but I am confused by the obviously false accusation that we charge families for training that has not occured. First off, we don't charge families for training. It comes out of the unit budget and we don't pay for training that has not occurred.

 

Note that the unit budget is only partially (less than half last year) paid for by youth registration fees. Yes, there is a $150 renewal fee for belonging to our unit but we spend over $300 per boy annually and most of that money comes from moneys donated to the unit by the IH and the community or fundraising. Also note that the $150 covers a lot that most units require the parent to purchase seperately but we purchase and simply pass the charge through including things like the uniform cap, neckerchief, slide and book. We also include boys life, both youth and one parent registration, insurance, along with all advancements and much much more. Our actual direct pass through charges (moneys collected that are used to pay for specific items or fees such as the uniform components) are over $100. The less than $50 our unit gets for the year round program goes to actual unit costs such as advancements and awards, operating budget (for example, printing newsletters for pack meetings, new parent books and postage). We actually charge the same as another local unit that does not include most of this (this came to light through this ordeal). As far as second year Webelos, I am not sure how June to February is considered 6 month because my math says that it is over 8 full months of program and we give a gift at bridging along with the fact that our second year Webelos earn more so our costs per boy actually rise for a shorter program.

 

There is a popcorn buyout for those that decided that they did not want to participate in sales just as most schools do on their fundraisers but there is no minimum requirement for sales so a boy only had to participate in one single show and sell and no buy out was needed.

 

Another point that is very easy to verify is that our unit has never had 100 boys EVER. We would love it and I have told the DE repeatedly that if we ever get to that point we will split the unit but last year we had just over 50 boys in February when we crossed two Webelos dens.

 

As far as speaking to a child without the parent around, I certainly would not want anyone to think it was underhanded, I participate in many youth events in our community and at events kids may come by and see us. I have never been alone and these conversations have always taken place publicly in the presence of others who were also party to the conversation.

 

Unfortunately this is much bigger than can or should be discussed here but I have not lied or misrepresented anything, I simply tried to share my firsthand horrible experience without going into detail but unfortunately it did not work out the way I wanted it to and each question to me has made me disclose more and more information. I was intentionally trying not to get into too much detail but obviously that failed. As far as the YP issue, it is unfortunately quite true and there are two other families that have come forward and are going to the SE. I did not attack and go to the Key 3 as claimed, these accusations came in and the DE told me that I had to file a complaint and he met with our IH and myself, both of my unit leaders along with several parents and he told us what we had to do. I also did not go to the Council as claimed, I specifically did not do that but was called to the SE's office when he heard about this through another party. I did not feel that it was something the SE needed to handle as the DE told me the Key 3 would handle it. The Key 3 tried to handle this as an arbitration between two parties that had a dispute as they felt it was the best way to do it and yes, there has been a ton of he said/she said and it is unfortunate but I can prove all of my allegations and I will stand on that.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

[FScouter]

Sheesh people, listen to yourselves.

[Eagle92]

Why is it that most of the problems in Scouting revolve around adults?

 

Why do adults do what youth can?

 

Why do we not expect more of our youth today? Stuff that 25, 50, 75 years ago they would be doing are now done by adults.