another boy/adult lead thread

[dennis99ss]

I have looked at some of the other threads on this topic, but would like to get some thought on a couple of issues

 

does anybody enforce structure on the plc? by this i mean requiring that the plc follow a formal set of rules, i.e. roberts rules. I see that the plc is very inefficient, and becomes clickish to some extent. While attempting to keep the boy lead idea, what are your ideas on instituting rules for the plc to run by. I am sure that some will say that turns it into adult lead, but, if the rules would be instituted, wouldn't that be the means of making the plc more efficient and effective, and, teach the boys that meetings need to have structure. please feel free to flame away.

 

Finally, does anyone have designated asm's to work with the individual plc members for advise/guidance. I know this is close to the boy/adult line, but if you have a designated adult to work with the quartermaster, it seems that the asm (as long as the asm understands the role) would turn into a consultant. giving ideas and being a sounding board. Anybody have this set up, and how is it working.

[Eagle92]

Dennis,

Growing up, the SPL worked with the SM to provide an agenda for the PLC. We didn't have formal rules like Robert's Rules etc, got intro'd to them with the OA, What we did do was have an agenda, and anytime we got off track either the SPL, or in rare cases the SM, wold tell us to "Let's focus on the agenda and bring this up later."

 

In my troop at least, we didn't have ASM advisors to the older scouts in PORS, aka Leadership Corps, and to be honest the adults most of the time would listen to the scouts when it came time to get equipment. The adults learned form expereince on that one though. When we lost all of our tents to mildew (another group at the CO used our brand new fiberglass shed as a dartboard, you can imagine the damage), the treasurer was told that we wanted one specific type of tent, basically what we had before but more updated. Well he found a different type of tent, one that was a pop-up ( i.e. one that all you did was take it out the bag, lift the top, and all the poles inside the sleeves would automatically connect and the tent was up), on sale dirt cheap, about $30/tent b/c they were discontinued.

 

WWWWEEEEEELLLLLLLL everythinks 'ALRIGHT EASY TENTS!" but #1 the tents were actually difficult to set up b/c we were used to setting up normal tents #2 the poles were very flimsy and broke, #3 the if one pole broke then the entire tent wouldn't set up properly. That was one fun trip let me tell you.

[BS-87]

I'm nearly certain every boy in a POR had an adult adviser in my troop growing up. If you're the Scribe you work with the Treasurer, SPL with the SM, each PL had an ASM, QM with the ASM who kept the trailer at his house, etc... And this system really seemed to work for us, as it got a large number of adults involved in a positive way. A boy may say I want to do "this" but has no idea how to do it, and so they walk through it with their adviser. That is, unless the youth didn't keep in communication with his adviser, and in that case the advisers were more than happy to watch us fail, but come in afterwards to make sure we understand what we should have done. When you have adults that want to set the boys they work with up for success, it creates a great leadership and learning experience in a safe way.

[Crew21_Adv]

dennis99ss,

 

Greetings!

 

Enforce sounds like a strong and harsh word. My troop demonstrates the structure to the newest PL's. By hosting a semiannual TLT, we also send at least one Scout to NYLT, were the model a PLC each day.

 

Also, we issue them Troop guidebooks, and Patrol Leader Handbook/Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. We use the sample agenda from inside these handbooks.

 

The meeting agenda seem to work fine. Granted, our PLC meetings are an hour and a half. Probably one hour more than the actual business.

 

Regarding designated ASM. Yeah, my troop sorta does. If the patrol wants to do just the basic minimum, plan a menu, collect dues, etc. The ASM is much more relaxed. If the patrol decides they want to pursue the honor patrol emblem and recognition, the ASM steps up a little more to make sure the PL has all their resources, finances, vehicles, etc.

 

I would say that my troop is boy led, with adult interaction.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Beavah]

Yah, Dennis, welcome!

 

I think by and large most of the adult meetings I attend are "very inefficient and cliquish to some extent". Why should the lads be any different?

 

I find Robert's Rules to be overkill for most small groups, youth and adult. But sometimes a SM in workin' with an SPL helps them to learn how to run an agenda (and insists on one, or helps him learn how to plan one). And sometimes, if runnin' meetings is an issue, a SM might incorporate some discussion and examples of that during an active troop leader training session.

 

The point is not to let the boys just flail eh? We are there as adults to coach, give ideas, do a bit of instruction here and there. But not to force 'em into our view. If they're happy with a meeting that's 20 minutes of work followed by 10 minutes of horseplay followed by 20 minutes of work, then who are we to complain as long as they get the work done eh? That's a lot better than sittin' through interminable adult power points that I see at some adult meetings.

 

Matching adults with PORs can work well as a tool, but only if yeh do your job in terms of selecting those adults and training/coaching them. Not every person who volunteers is ready to work with kids in a scouting environment, and a poor selection, or no training/coaching of the adults, can really hurt yeh.

 

Beavah

[Eagledad]

>>Also, we issue them Troop guidebooks, and Patrol Leader Handbook/Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. We use the sample agenda from inside these handbooks.

[clemlaw]

Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

 

Thank you.

 

I just wanted to say that Roberts' Rules of Order (or even the less formal and less known Bob's Rules of Order) are going a little bit overboard, IMHO.

[Stosh]

Our troop runs a bit different. We are small now, so there's no PLC. Once we get to 4-5 patrols maybe we'll put one together. Until then there's no need. Robert's Rules are for groups that make decisions so our PLC would not find it necessary to institute those. We should be at 3 patrols by the middle of winter.

 

Our PL's run their own patrols and they are independent of other patrols. All decisions regarding the patrols are decided within the individual patrol. Thus there is no need for an outside group (PLC) to impose decisions on them. Kinda like all the dens in a Pack deciding what another den has to do. Nope. Not going to happen any time soon either.

 

So if there is a PLC it will be a clearing house of patrol decisions, i.e. Patrol 1 lets Patrol 2-4 know what they are up to and if any of them want to join forces, so be it. It does not mean Patrol 2-4 make decisions for Patrol 1, that's a previously done deal.

 

Agenda:

Patrol 1 - makes a report of what they are up to.

Patrol 2 - same thing

Patrol 3 - " "

Patrol 4 - " "

Discussion:

Patrol 1 & 3 happen to have decided on the same activity. So it would be a good idea to pool their resources, rides, etc. to get to the event. It will be then necessary to have involvement with QM who has been sitting in on the meeting, to make sure there's enough equipment for both patrols, etc.

Patrol 2 is going somewhere else. If it is at the same time as Patrol 1 & 3's event, QM is involved to make sure the equipment is available.

Patrol 4 hasn't any plans, but where Patrol 1 & 3 are going sounds like fun so he'll make a presentation to his patrol to see if they wish to join in. If they decide to, then PL #4 will present at the next PLC and enter into the discussion with PL's from 1 & 3.

 

SPL coordinates all of this. Collects up the reports and facilitates the discussions amongst the PL's.

 

Once everything is hashed out amongst the PL's, the SPL adjourns the meeting.

 

Ownership and interest is maintained within the patrols. There is nothing worse than having Patrols 1-3 voting on an activity and Patrol 4 now has to go along with them whether they want to or not. More often than not, they'll just stay home or find some other activity to participate in instead. I can't envision all the boys deciding together on a single activity very often. With an age span of 11-18 I'm sure unanimous votes in the PLC would tend to be rather scarce.

 

With mixed patrols, only parts of patrols will opt out of an agreed upon activity and so attendance in all patrols will suffer on an uninteresting activity. Thus the temptation for ad hoc patrols becomes evident. There's a natural tendency in troops to have a larger number of younger boys than older boys and if PLC's become voting/deciding bodies, then the interest of activities will be focused more on activities for the younger boys and the older boys will either tolerate it or drop out.

 

Imagine if you will, five groups deciding on an joint activity. 4 of them are female one is male. The group consensus is learning how to scrapbook. Yeah, right! Poker Night got a whole lot more interesting all of a sudden and I don't play Poker. Or if the 5 groups were all mixed, the Poker Night still looks pretty good. This way all the groups get fractured. But what if each group was able to decide for themselves. At least everyone stays in the game. Works kinda like an independent VP if given autonomy to run it's own program. If not, it's gonna be history, too.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Stosh

 

[Eagle732]

The only rule we have for the PLC is that the SPL runs it, he runs it how he sees fit, which is probably different than his predecessor. Is it efficient? NO, nothing is Scouting is done in an efficient manor except learning leadership skills and and how to be a good citizen. That we do pretty efficiently!

 

I have 1 ASM assigned to each patrol, and one MC assigned to the QM. They know not to interfere but are a resource. This works well, the main job of my advisors is to keep the helicopter parents away!

[IM_Kathy]

my son's troop does have adults that "over see" certain positions... for example I am the adult in charge of the trailer so I oversee the QMs. The main QM is picked by the SPL and then that QM picks his assistants (or better worded says yes or no to people who ask to be assistants). If the main QM is new then I use the out-going QM to teach him and then just over see. If the main QM is a returning one and did well I look to see who he has for assistants and give suggestions based on that - for example our newly selected QM is a returning and very good QM and one of his assistants is a young guy. I just mentioned to him that one thing I'm counting on him to do is to teach this younger scout how to do this job because as the older scouts age out the newer scouts need boys that know what they are doing and this is his chance to pay it forward.

[Alabama Scouter]

As SM, I encourage all patrol leaders (PL's) to attend, and their APL's if they can't come. I discourage adults other than myself and my senior ASM. The New Scout Patrol has help sometimes from their Troop Guide. I try [really] hard to limit adult input as boys will defer to any adult. The PLC is tasked with deciding on which of the 10 activities/locations for the year will be camped at for this quarter, based on the last years troop planning conference. Sometimes boy lead is slow and painful to watch, and it is sometimes distressing to see adults jump in when boys are doing fine, but slower or with a different method than that adult would do. I suggest an agenda to the SPL prior to the PLC, to keep him on track and to remember what needs to get done. Training adults about boy lead is harder at times than the boys. If the scouts can talk through an issue or plan, they'll come out with a workable plan. It's not Roberts Rules, but so what.

[Stosh]

Gee, if the boys don't learn Roberts Rules of Order in scouts where are they to learn it?

 

Any community meetings are run by Roberts.

 

Church councils are run by Roberts.

 

The association of reenactors I meet with are run by Roberts.

 

School boards are run by Roberts.

 

One would think that Roberts is a vital part of leadership in the community and every citizen should have a basic working knowledge of them. Too bad we don't teach the boys this type of leadership skill which is so easy to do.

 

Naw, it's too hard to train the boys up in basic citizenship. Leave it to just an overview in the MB's and let the boys figure it out later on in life when and if they ever have to use it.

 

I'm thinking most people don't teach Roberts because they themselves don't know it. If one wishes a truly boy-led program, I can't imagine this skill not being taught. Of course if adults wish to run the show from the back seat, the boys knowing Roberts would not be a good idea. That's why we have Roberts in the first place to keep individuals from taking control of small group discussions.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

I was in the state student legislature for two years in college. Some of those guys are absolutely fanatical about Robert's Rules. You had to know your way around the rules just to be able to eat or go to the head, much less conduct any business.

 

Gotta say, Stosh, the idea that using Robert's Rules is critical to having a boy-led troop is a new one. Using RR during a PLC meeting sure sounds adult-driven to me.

 

There are very few organizations which really use Robert's Rules, or use them properly. Just because folks make motions and wait for a second before voting doesn't mean they're using Robert's.

 

Robert's is most effective for policy-making bodies where accuracy and thorough debate is at a premium. I hope that doesn't describe anyone's PLC. Most PLCs are about generating ideas, making plans and reaching concensus. RR are not very conducive to that style of meeting.

 

The best thing an SM can do to help the SPL keep meetings productive is to work with him to develop an agenda for each meeting. With an agenda, the SPL knows what needs to be covered and has a time frame in which to get it done. I have an agenda meeting by phone with my SPL every Sunday night, and especially before PLCs. Once he's learned the process, I'll just ask what he has on tap and listen. Sometimes I'll have something I think needs discussion or reiteration and ask him to include it.

 

The ability to create an agenda, work through it and make decisions is a pretty important skill to have.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I once saw a fellow introduce full-on Roberts Rules to a PLC annual planning meeting. The boys hated it.

 

Da one thing it did do, though it took some time, was get them to figure out how to have a productive discussion which came to an end.

 

By limiting each person to two comments on any issue, it forced boys to think out their points before they "used up" one of their comments.

 

By watching their proposal "die" without a second, it slowly taught boys to think about others, not just how great their idea is.

 

By watching them get frustrated with people proposing amendment after amendment, it slowly taught lads that sometimes holding up the process isn't worth it to try to get your way, because then people just vote down anything yeh propose.

 

So sometimes da structure of Roberts Rules helps boys see things about the dynamics of a discussion that they wouldn't otherwise notice, and change their behavior.

 

Or not.

 

I wouldn't recommend it necessarily as a regular practice, eh? But as a tool in da toolbox of TLT, yah, sure, why not?

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Dennis

 

First of all this a boy scout meeting not a frigin high school debate club Roberts rules just have no place. Second a good SM will OBSERVE quietly in the background a PLC meeting and if he sees a problem pull the SPL aside after it is over and offer him some guidance, and then see how it goes the next week. IMO a SM should never barge in and take control of a PLC meeting, otherwise these boys will never learn how to lead and it undermines one of the major tasks of scouting, "teaching leadership skills". Bylaws at the troop level should exsist ONLY if the boys WANT them and CREATE them on their own.

 

Lastly it is okay to allow your PLC to fail once in a while, it is part of the learning process. It is just too easy for adult leaders who see something they don't like to want to dive in and take control, and then you have an adult led troop which runs contrary to the purposes of scouting. You can advise your boys but never dictate to them because all that does is create bad morale and stifles their ability to lead.