Need References

[Eamonn]

Much as I hate to come off sounding in any way harsh.

I kinda get a little .... Shall we say nervous when someone starts asking for BSA references and guidelines.

It most times means that someone is not very happy and they want to give the person who is the cause of this unhappiness a good whack along the side of the head with these references and guidelines.

 

I'm very happy to go along with what John-in-KC posts.

Some little while back I thought he was wrong (And I was right!)

But when I looked into it all a bit deeper. He was right. (Which of course meant that I wasn't!)

 

I also tend to agree with what I think Beavah might have being getting at.

Advancement is something that should occur almost naturally in a unit with half decent program.

It should never be the driving force of the program.

Having said that I do believe that units should trust the adults that they have selected to lead.

Maybe one of the ASM's might not be as tough as maybe I might be when it comes to testing a Lad.

But again with a decent program, most of the stuff is going to be used time and time again and hopefully will become something that is just known. Kinda like tying your shoelaces!

If I were made king of the BSA. I would maybe for a minute think about not allowing Scouts to complete MB's in house. But when I think that our role is to help and support the Scouts, I'd see this as maybe placing hurdles in their path.

Again it comes down to a matter of trust. We either choose to trust the people we select or we admit that we messed up and shouldn't have selected them in the first place.

 

The Eagle Scout project book.

Over the years, I've seen the really nice, the good and the really bad.

The really bad are just that.

When I have been asked to cover for the District Advancement guy and a Lad has brought his project to be approved and the book is unreadable. I have in as nice a way as possible explained that this is a Leadership Service Project and communication is a leadership skill, which isn't shown by the way he is communicating in the book.

I'm happy that the book can now be filled in on a computer. Like it or not a penmanship is fast becoming a lost art and for a good many Lads, they haven't used a pen for a very long time.

We did have a District Advancement Chair who wanted these books to look something like the book of Kells. However the District Chairman took him out for a drink and between us we came up with some less strict guidelines that he could live with and I thought were a little more kid friendly.

 

Lastly, as a parent I knew that I always had the option of moving my son to another Troop. He did in fact change Troops. But that was all on him.

I hope that before I would give any serious thought to moving my son. I would stop and think about all the time and hard work the adult leaders in the Troop have invested in him.

Sure things might not be perfect and there might be things that get up my nose.

Still these unpaid volunteers, week in and week out are willing to take the time to work with my kid, who Lord knows has at times gone through stages that would try the patience of the best of Saints.

Pulling my son out? To me would be the worst kind of insult.

If becoming an Eagle Scout is that very important? (And I'm not sold that it is.) It's worth remembering that from the time a Lad joins until he ages out is a very long time and there really isn't any kind of a rush.

Ea.

[qwazse]

from the time a Lad joins until he ages out is a very long time and there really isn't any kind of a rush. (MomToEli, that's done with HTML tags < i > stuff in italics < / i >, which I think should now be part of communications MB!)

 

I suspect the SM as gatekeeper has to have that attitude. Things can pile up and wait. He must really love paperwork. But he misses out on watching his boys imitate him: "Sir, will you sign this off?" "Did I see you do it?" "I can't remember." "Can you do it now?" "I don't think so." "Well then, we've just answered your original question ..."

 

I know that as an SM/ASM/PL team with an advancement chair to review, we still are challenged to keep on top of it all. But, the SM and I would rather put our effort in the tough cases (getting a disability waiver for a scout who can't swim ..., awards of merit ..., etc ...).

 

We have limits on number of req MBs from one counselor and we don't want parents teaching their own kids a req MB. We do lose parents over this. (Not so sure we're losing the kids, but sometimes that may be the case.)

Bottom line for us: the COR will not weigh in on this, so it's the discretion of the SM. Since the BSA gives a little flexibility in this issue, we'll trade the discomfort of all the other adults (myself included) to let the SM be satisfied with how he's doing his job.

[Eamonn]

". But he misses out on watching his boys imitate him"

You lost me.

I really do not worry about advancement.

In fact more often than not Scouts have to hound me to get whatever it is that needs signed, signed.

Or I make a promise to myself to get things up-dated.

Most of the time we are too busy doing other stuff to worry about things like records and the like.

Of course when asked I do my very best to do what is needed.

I have never seen the need for anyone else to get involved.

This talk about "Advancement Chairs" and "Eagle Advisor's" Is really lost on me.

I know the Scouts, they know me. We have a relationship which allows me to know their strengths and their weaknesses.

 

I have organized District events where I have seen Scouts who should know stuff hang back and hide from doing things because they are embarrassed about not being able to join in.

This is a real shame and I see it as very much a disservice to the Lad. Not to mention a really bad example.

To date no Scout, no matter what rank who has joined the Ship has been able to tie the basic knots and most have no idea what to do with a map and a compass. Add to this that what they can cook leaves a lot to be desired and I wonder what the Troops in the area where I live spend their time doing.

Sure I'm very much aware that I'm fast becoming an old relic.

But without basic skills what real adventures and challenges can these Scouts really do?

Then when they can't be involved in the things that do really challenge them and can't participate in the adventures they quit and we wonder why?

Ea.

 

 

[momof7scouts]

I would like to thank all of you for your input. Reading these replies, as well as incidents that have occurred since I originally posted, have helped me a great deal.

It is not actually references or rules that are the issue for me. It is that whatever set of rules the troop has chosen to follow are not enforced on all. While many have said that making rank, even Eagle, is a minor consideration, I disagree in the aspect that the rank is recognition of a job well done and part of what Scouting is about. If the ranks are so unimportant, why even have them.

My boys have stayed in the troop because our options are somewhat limited due to how rural we are. My husband and I have done our best to help the troop not just for the sake of our own sons but for the other Scouts as well. I love the boys. They are charming, funny, obnoxious, little smart mouths, but I just love them. I mentioned the issues with requiring one set of boys to have a minimum of a week between SM conf. and BoR while allowing others to do two of each in a single meeting. I mentioned denying merit badges to some boys who did a single merit badge with a parent then allowing another to do three in two months. But the issues are far greater than these:

*Average scout takes six months to get troop Eagle project approval, with multiple rewrites done for adviser, SM, and committee. District advisers have repeated told our leadership they are requiring too much. Nothing changes.

*Scout finished Eagle project but took 18 months to do final write up because he was so burned out on the initial troop approval.

*District adviser told a scout that he might have underestimated hours to complete project. Scout pointed out that the 70 hrs. were just to get troop approval.

*District adviser apologized to a different Scout after seeing the number of hours and rewrites he had to do saying no troop should put a Scout through that.

*We have Scouts languishing at Star and Life because they have not had leadership position long enough. SM has waited until a boy finished with a position then told him did not do good enough, with no forewarning there was a problem. SM will schedule re-elections at 4 or 5 month intervals, so that if a Scout does not get re-elected to same position, can't get life.

*An Eagle going for third palm was told he had to be JASM to earn silver. Scout graduated from HS early and attends college. Troop changed meeting night and conflicts with his schedule. Scout has attended every camp out offered during that time and helped out since there is usually only one ASM present; has helped others on Eagle projects; helped with a community service project leading a crew of younger scouts; earned four merit badges offered on weekends; and ran a station during a troop merit badge session. SM told him this was not sufficient. If he could not make meetings, as an Eagle Scout, he should have been sending out e-mails to other Scouts encouraging them to make rank. The Scout ages out in a few weeks and is petitioning the district to overturn SM's decision.

*Our Advancement Chair brings a district rep. to many meetings because she feels she is being bullied by other leaders.

*The Committee Chair is in a similar position but due to a couple of parents undermining her in an effort to take over her position.

*Several parents are going to district over advancement issues.

*While rank advancement may not be the most important aspect of Scouting, we have many boys that have been in the troop for four years, have adequate but not awesome attendance, and are still 2nd Class.

*Few Scouts make Eagle, very few have earned a palm, none have ever earned a silver palm in the history of the troop.

*Many Scouts just give up and quit.

*With all the roadblocks thrown up at boys trying to earn Eagle before age 17, the troop bends over backward for 17 year olds, they get the single rewrite and special merit badge sessions to get them through, even if they have not been active for a year or so.

*An SM who will only schedule SM conferences between pancake breakfasts at the church he goes to on Sundays, if he is in town but also insists he is the only one who can sign off on anything above 2nd class.

*A rule that states every Scout must get sign-offs and schedule BoRs and SM conf. on their own. Then allowing a couple to have their parents pushing for sign-offs at meetings and parents having the BoR scheduled before the SM conf. (another troop rule.) The parents then pressure for SM conf. since people are waiting around to do the BoR.

 

So, after reading all the advise here, we are beginning the extraction process, moving those who are not in the middle of a rank or Eagle project to a different but less convenient troop. Before we leave, my husband is petitioning the district on behalf of a number of boys who have been screwed over on a number of issues. I hope, for their sakes, he is successful.

 

[moosetracker]

Some of it I see as issues, some not so. If you are getting scouts with palms, that is something. My son is the only one to get any palms in our troop, he did not make the 3rd one simply because he couldn't get any MBC for the last MB he wanted and he was looking at any of 3 MB's.. But he was the only.. So it seems that while some scouts may be being delayed unneccessarily, not all are.

 

If a scout has 6 months in Position of Responsibility, that does not mean it needs to be the SAME POR, so if he has 2 months in one, 2 months in another, 2 months in another he has met his 6 months for Position of Responsibility, so if you do move, add up the different PORs while at their current rank, and inform their new troop of this.

 

I am surprised that your committee meetings are so volitile that you have District Representation and nothing has been changed in the troop. I certainly would want to sort out and suggest changes for the unit and get the issues resolved rather then continually visit the unit each and every month as a bodyguard.