Should I be worried about leaders?

[Cheerful]

My 11 year old son, and 9 other boys, joined the troop in Spring of 2010. There are no 12 year olds in the troop. I think the 11 year olds are being ignored.

The Advancement Chair does Boards of Review only.

The 16 year old Patrol Guide plays football and has not been to a meeting in months.

The head SM took the spring off, looks worried all the time, doesn't seem to know the older boys' names all the time, introduced a 17 year old scout from our troop with wrong info (boys kept correcting him). (has been SM 4? years)

The 13 year old SPL and ASPL are fighting all the time. I saw one punch the other in the head at a campout. SM says "we are trying to stop them from fighting but nothing works."

The 11 year olds' parents are pretty much ignored.

No one seems very friendly and no one is cheerful.

Some parents of 11 year olds (two boys have ADD) attend meetings and are told which exact chairs to sit in (the kindergarden chairs). There are many boys who are 14 and 15 in the troop are who not at First Class yet and the SPL and ASPL, who are 13, are at Life (their parents are high in the troop).

I'm more worried now that I write all this.

 

Activities are hard for 11 year olds: 60 mile bike ride, white water rafting trip, factory tour with a minimum age of 13.

Questions from newer parents are answered with "it's a boy run organization" with no real answers.

 

Advancement is on the agenda about once a month (15 minutes).

 

I only know Girl Scouts, not Boy Scouts, but something seems wrong. Should I be worried? What can I do to help?

P.S. The Committee Chair I have met only twice. She is taking a graduate school class the night of the troop meetings. She is seriously not a friendly person. (Her son was the one who punched the other boy in the head). She told us newer parents not to talk to each other in the parking lot because we will give each other bad information.

HELP!!!!! My son loves scouting especially summer camp and merit badges.

 

[Stosh]

I would talk to the DE about one of two subjects.

 

1) Need to get the unit functional. Right now there are enough markers to indicate that the troop is very dysfunctional.

 

or

 

2) Where you might go to find a functional troop for your boy.

 

This program may be deemed "boy-led" but obviously there is zero leadership going on. Are the boys trained? Are they organized? It surely sounds more like a free-for all than an organized troop. Just because it's boy-led does not mean that the adults "take a powder". I have seen a lot of units go through power struggles, but this is just the opposite, everyone has abdicated leadership.

 

Stosh

[Mrw1]

A lot of times I would recommend getting trained and trying to work to improve the troop.

 

In this case, I see shopping for another troop as being the only option to give your son a full scouting experience, without a great deal of frustration on both your parts.

 

Look to see what other troops are availbale in the area and go visit a few. Even if you are driving to the next town every week, finding a functional troop should be well worth the effort.

[NJCubScouter]

Yes, you should be worried but I do not think you should go to the DE (or anyone else outside the troop) yet. (Emphasis on "yet.") First I think you should have a discussion among the concerned parents and try to agree on a course of action. There is strength in numbers. The course of action I would recommend would first to be to sit down with the CC, however "unfriendly" she may be. It would be nice if everyone were friendly, but her primary job is to make sure the troop is well run, so the real question is whether she is doing her job, and her demeanor is secondary. Ask her to sit down with your group of parents, or three or four representatives. It can be at a committee meeting, or it can be elsewhere. Obviously it should be away from the boys. Tell her your concerns. Maybe she knows and has already decided she isn't going to do anything about it, but give her a chance. Just be very matter-of-fact, here are our concerns, one-two-three, pretty much the way you spelled them out here. You can make a statement regarding the possible consequences if your concerns are not addressed satisfactorily, but in a diplomatic way, such as "We really have to consider whether this is the right environment for our sons." If she refuses to meet with you, or tells you that you are wrong, acting on misinformation, etc., you could go to the CR, the representative of the organization that owns the troop, and express your concerns. Or you could just decide to leave. (Or go to the CR, and then if that doesn't work, leave.) I'm not sure I'd even get to the DE, because by that point you have a war going on within the troop, and it would probably be best just to find another troop.

[Nike]

I think I know why there are no 12 year olds: Their parents headed for the exits last year before y'all crossed over.

 

I would begin visiting other troops now and transfer over as soon as you find one you like. Crossover season is coming up and your first year Scout will be able to fold in with the new Scouts in a well run troop.

 

Boy led doesn't mean boy led into the ditch.

[VigilEagle04]

NJ, I agree with your post except I would recommend going to someone in the district. I tend to go Commissioner, but that's just me. Maybe finding out who the Unit Commissioner is (if there is one) and seeing if they know about the goings on. If they don't talk to them about it, they should bring it up with others. If they do and haven't done anything, then seek out someone else.

 

Even if you're doing it on your wait out the door, you're at least looking out for other parents who may have found themselves in the same situation you were in.

[BartHumphries]

When you chat with people on the committee, just lay out the facts, why you're worried. You don't need to tell them why it's important to fix those things, just what's broken. The Troop Committee should be overseeing the Scoutmaster. If the Scoutmaster is taking time off, well sometimes people have to do that, but he should be making sure that somebody (an Assistant Scoutmaster, perhaps) is doing something and things are getting done while he's gone. If it's been months and nothing's really happening, then perhaps the Troop Committee or Chartered Organization Representative need to start thinking about a different Scoutmaster. Sometimes people get upset if they think that you're exploring what's wrong just because you want to take control, but if the troop is really that dysfunctional then perhaps it needs new leaders and since you already have ideas about what needs to be fixed...

 

Speaking of your ideas, try not to point out a problem without also offering a suggestion that might fix it. Two boys fought. Ok, how would you stop them, what's the carrot, what's the stick? Some 14 and 15 year olds aren't at First Class yet? How would you correct that -- perhaps those boys could have an extra meeting on a separate night to "catch up". Perhaps more attention needs to be paid to the basics at the regular meetings. Every troop is different they say, so the "correct" solution will likely vary for your troop. Also, try not to go too far above a person's head, try talking to the person closest to the problem, in this case that'd probably be the Scoutmaster. Maybe he just needs more help, perhaps the Troop Committee isn't doing all the things that they should be doing and he's feeling overwhelmed from having everything dumped on his shoulders. Then again, maybe it's him, I don't know your situation so I wouldn't know.

 

11-year old boys can do a lot -- when I was that age, I never did a 60-mile bike trip, but I did do 20-30 miles regularly with two friends to get to the Village and back (who, unfortunately, never did join the Scout troop, but that's another story). I live in a pretty hilly environment and looking back on it I'm really astonished at the hills I managed to laboriously ride up in a BMX one speed -- there's no way I'd attempt that today without a multi-speed bike to make the hill easier. That being said, 11-year olds are young boys and can't be expected to keep up 15 and 16-year olds -- it's rare to see an elementary/middle school kid who can keep up with high school seniors (I was pretty active, but I don't think I could have kept up with boys 5-years older than me). Scouts that young really need their own outdoor activities or they need "races" broken up into different heats or something to differentiate between the boys of different ages.

 

Good luck, let us know how it goes. (This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

[dg98adams]

Ok,

1st off, since no one here has observed anything first hand, relax and read thru the replies for useful info.

 

Did you visit any other Troops when you son was a Webelos? Why did your son choose this Troop?

 

So, here's my thoughts...

 

DO NOT go beyond the Scout Master/Assistant Scout Master/SPL right now... Your DE or Unit Commissioner (if you even know who that is) is not going to be able to solve anything for you. Same for the Committee Chair.

 

Boy Scouts will not look like Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts or Awana... some chaos is a given. I agree, fighting has no place in Scouting, and should be dealt with by the leaders. Maybe it was...

 

What do 12 year old's look like? We have a 6 foot 12.5 year old at about #190, and 4 foot tall 14 year old I bet goes #75-80 pounds (with rocks in both pockets).

 

If you mean there appears to be a gap between older boys and younger boys, then it's possible an entire Patrol (grouping of like-aged boys) left the Troop or were never recruited.

 

It's common to observe that leaders kids can advance quickly (it's at the Scouts own pace which is different that Cub or Girl Scouts)... and leaders kids usually come to all the meetings and outing (since dad or mom is there). The time required for advancement is in the Boy Scout Hand book.... if you want to look it up.

 

A New Scout Patrol guide that plays foot ball should not be the Patrol guide for the new Scout Patrol (if that's what your son is in). This is probably due to the lack of leadership, and IS a valid concern.

 

New Scouts being told where to sit (probably by other Scouts is not out of the norm) since they are new Scouts after all. they should be sitting with all the Scouts in their patrol anyway.

 

Scouts that are 14-15 and not 1st Class can either be new, not interested in advancement (which is ok), or not coming to opportunities/outings to learn skills (also their choice if it's offered).

 

Your son should advance (or not at his own pace.. again is he reading his book?), assuming they are being given direction and opportunities.

 

Does he have a Boy Scout hand book? H

 

Has he started reading the joining requirements and started on Scout requirements? Boy Scouts are responsible for their own advancement.

 

As far as the activities being too hard, did you know the Cycling Merit Badge requires a 50 miler in 1 day? And this merit badge is available to any Scout 11 to 18? Is this a good activity for a brand new Scout, probably not. But the Scouts choose their activities, and probably the lack of younger Scouts (up to now) was the reason for the limiting activities.

 

When our Troop did Whitewater rafting, we also excluded anyone not a swimmer, did not have the canoeing Merit Badge or under 13.

 

You need to get some training (at least volunteer to be on the committee). There's training online at national for a lot.

 

If you are not allowed to sign up for the Committee (after doing all the training you can online) ... then find a new Troop.

 

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[Beavah]

Hiya Cheerful, welcome to the Scouter.Com forums!

 

One of the things that's very true is that when we join a new organization, the first thing we notice are the flaws. Those are the easiest, eh? Especially since we don't know what's goin' on yet, really.

 

So I always tell folks like yourself that yeh aren't allowed to comment on the "bad" things until you have been in the troop long enough to be able to identify all of the "good" things that are goin' on. Yah, that SM may be a bit harried and overworked and forgetful, but the fellow is giving a lot of his time for free, eh? Does he do anything well? What does your son love about the troop. What things should not be changed.

 

Once you've had time to figure things out well enough to recognize all the good things, then I'm certain you will also have taken the time to thank both the youth and adult leaders for those good things. To praise 'em for their hard work and efforts.

 

Only then, when yeh know the good and bad, and when you've built up some credibility by recognizing and praising the good things people do, can yeh really be effective at offering to pitch in and fix up some of the "bad" things.

 

I'm not sayin' there aren't any concerns in your troop. There are concerns and "bad" things in every troop. Of your list, I wouldn't worry about da advancement chair or what other kids' advancement is like or what chairs people sit in. Probably not too much about whether the TG is playing football and can't make meetings. And while "ignoring" the 11-year-olds parents may feel awkward to you, one of the things about Boy Scouting is that it's different than Cub Scouting. The adult leaders work directly with the boys without involving parents all the time, and the boys are their focus, especially at meetings. That can feel like being ignored compared to Cub Scouts, but I bet if yeh think about it it's pretty much like other middle school sports, eh? If the boys are at practice, the coaches are pretty much ignoring the parents on the sidelines.

 

I would be worried a bit about the fighting (though perhaps not as much if it were just a "thing" between two boys who were otherwise friends, more of a roughhousing game). And I would be a bit worried about getting the SM some more help if he's getting a bit frazzled. Honestly, the unfriendly CC who doesn't interact well with new parents might be da thing that concerns me the most, unless the regular fighting is "real".

 

In terms of events, it may be that the troop is doin' something which sometimes happens, where an older troop and PLC plan interesting events, but don't fully take into account the younger fellows. Some older-scout-only events are an OK thing... they're things your son can look forward to, but there's a balance. I will say, though, that a 60 mile bike ride and a white water rafting trip can be well within the ability of an average first year scout, and I've seen lots of troops do those things successfully. But for some lads who are out of shape or less comfortable with the water yeh have to make some allowances for added support.

 

Last thing is that advancement should never be on the agenda. That's not how it works. Boy Scouts do things. They go camping and run meetings and all sorts of stuff. Advancement comes out of doing things, not out of setting meeting agenda items to work on it.

 

So I'd say yeh might have a few legitimate concerns to help your troop work on, and a couple things where your concerns are misplaced. Once yeh find all of the good things that your troop does and give some applause to the people who do 'em, you should think about how to step forward and help 'em with the things that need work.

 

If your son is enjoying himself, and there seem to be a lot of troop activities for him to do so, then I'd say you let yourself be guided by his interests and friendships. If he is doing well, then stay. If on da other hand your son is miserable, go find a different scouting program that he clicks with. If it's in between, give it some time and let him make the call.

 

Beavah

 

[Cheerful]

 

Wow! Thanks you so much for all your thoughtful, wise comments and ideas.

 

The consensus is that this is a "leadership" issue. I couldn't put my finger on what was going on. (I thought maybe it was a "values" issue or "favoritism".)

 

We did not look at other troops before joining (didn't realize boys did that) but there are many troops in our area. My son has met some leaders from other troops who were his Merit Badge Counselors and at summer camp. He has had really positive experiences doing merit badge work. We know other leaders from business and social situations so a different troop is an easy option.

 

My son is progressing. The Summer Camp program he was in was advancement oriented so that was a really good experience for him. Summer camp appears to have been very positive for all the boys who went.

 

My son was told recently by the SPL that he was "not allowed" to advance to the next rank (2nd Class) until he was 12. (This is second hand info from my son.)

 

Our troop had a retired? SM while our SM was off and that was a good experience. He had a lot started. He was a positive, constructive, can do guy (and he was cheerful too.) The transition after he left was pretty rocky.

 

(I meant to say the two parents who sit in on meetings are told to sit in the kindergarden chairs - one dad weighs 240ish pounds.) Seems kind of mean to me.

 

That was a good point about the CC not having to be friendly - just needs to run the troop.

 

My father says our troop is Lord of the Flies.

 

I think I will continue to do online Scout training to learn more about scouts and look at nearby troops so we have a better understanding of scouting in general. My son loves merit badges. (I'm surprised at all that he is interested in).

 

My conclusion is: our experience with Cub Scouts was great, Merit Badge Counselors incredibly great, summer camp was really good, retired SM who took over was fun and forward moving, this forum (I assume you are all Scout veterans was really, really helpful) so it all contrasts with the troublesomeness in our troop leadership.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WAKWIB]

I had a great LOL at the Lord of the Flies comment. I've seen a few campouts both as a Scout and as an leader that might fit that description.

Obviously, that should not be the overall flavor of any Troop.

 

It sounds like your Scout is having a good time with the program. He might have the opportunity to have an even better time with another unit, and you indicate that there are a lot of options.

 

If you are totally not comfortable with what you are seeing in the current situation, and your son is on-board with the idea, you owe it to yourselves to shop around a bit.

[Lisabob]

In a word - yes.

 

I think there's a lot to be said for trusting your instinct, particularly if backed up by others who know the situation and whose opinions you trust (Lord of the Flies? yikes!). If it were me, I'd be looking around now. Your son might actively choose to stay with his current troop, in which case (if you can stand it) there is something to be said for biting your tongue. But it is really good to know what other options exist, and also for knowing when to pull the plug on a bad experience - if that's the way things are headed.

 

Please, just don't let experiences with this one troop sour you, or your son, on scouting in general. There are a lot of other troops out there who probably do things differently. None of them will be "perfect" either, but several of them might be closer to what you and your son will want from a scout troop.

 

 

[Cheerful]

 

Your replies were very helpful.

 

I realize, thanks to your replies, that the SM is frazzled and stressed and that comes out as him micromanaging and being critical. Parents get critized and then don't want to help anymore.

 

The new parents do complain in the parking lot because the SM forgets or postpones SM conferences and getting merit badge cards is a struggle (out of stock, can't find, can't find counselor list), etc.

 

SM and ASM do not get along - evidenced during campouts. SM wants to rotate off now that his son is almost Eagle.

 

CC doesn't seem to respect SM. I overheard a discussion where she overruled him when he wanted to thank the retired SM for taking over the troop for him and she said the retired guy did not need any thanks.

 

The last two events have been canceled and the next camping trip there aren't enough adults signed up.

 

I think the SM is a great guy - very conscientious - he tries to do an awful lot on his own. Then he has 10 new guys and 18 new parents. No wonder he took time off.

 

It's as though he knows things are not going well and instead of accepting newbie (probably not so capable) help he tries to do it all himself. Imagine having to do 20 SM conferences for Scout and Tenderfoot and some 2nd Class in a few months all yourself - plus the older guys' conferences, run the troop, help your son finish Eagle and do your big job in a bad economy.

 

My son loves scouts. The adult Eagle scouts in the troop are really fine people (frazzled SM included).

 

The sniping between the adult leaders combined with a frazzled SM is taking its toll.

 

Your replies were the objective, wise voices of Scouting reason I needed. We will look for a new troop (there are 12 in within 5 miles).

 

My husband says thanks too!!!!!

 

Always Cheerful (courteous and kind)

[Scoutfish]

I think you are wise to look for a new troop.

 

There are a few reasons that I think this, but the biggest of them all is"

 

"She told us newer parents not to talk to each other in the parking lot because we will give each other bad information."

 

 

Really? Bad info? Or maybe you might agree that something smells bad or is not being done right?

 

Sounds like some good ole boy mentality to me.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I hate "Lord of the Flies" comments. Far more often than not, they are made by someone doesn't understand or buy into the Boy Scouting notion of youth leadership. Odds are, when yeh hear such a comment, it's from a newly crossed over parent looking for an adult-run webelos 3 program.

 

And ironically, Lord of the Flies the book was actually an allegory about adult society, not a commentary on da nature of youth.

 

That's why I think we all need to be a lot more circumspect about the "go look for another troop" comments. I think we really do first year boy scouting parents a disservice with that sort of extreme, knee jerk reaction. As we read da OP's most recent post, we again find da pattern of these things. It really isn't all that bad in her troop. There's an overworked SM (typical), and a blunt CC (not that unusual), and some good older boys and a program her son seems to like. Da biggest worry is an impending and necessary leadership transition.

 

We all (me as well) get our shorts in a bundle because of secondhand reports of offhanded comments by someone like this CC. But honestly, who among us hasn't on occasion made an offhanded comment that was dumb or that another parent took the wrong way? If that's da threshold for "find a new troop" then no lad's scouting will ever be stable.

 

And that's key, eh? You do a lot of damage to a boy's scouting experience when you switch troops. It disrupts everything for him, just like changing schools or moving to a new neighborhood. New friends to make, new social environment to navigate, new procedures and expectations. Changing troops is as likely to cause a boy to disconnect and drop out of scouting as anything.

 

It's not advice that should be da first out of our lips to a disaffected first year parent.

 

Cheerful, I wouldn't push one way or the other. If your son seems unhappy, yeh can raise the possibility with him of changing troops. But I'd make sure that he makes that decision, or at least buys in fully. Changing troops is hard on a lad, and works best if it's his decision. And yeh really can only do it once, no matter what "concerns" yeh develop about the new troop. And there are sure to be some, eh? There are in every troop everywhere.

 

Beavah