The LDS Scouting program and BSA program

[shortridge]

All right, here's another question, following up on Gary_Miller's reply on the second page of this thread regarding the selection of the SPL.

 

jhankins initially wrote: "Yes, the COR appoints the SPL with guidance from the Scoutmaster, but currently in my LDS units the patrol leaders are chosen by the boys after the list is approved by the Bishop, and the SPLs are nominated for by the boys then interviewed by the Young Men's Presidency and Bishop. and: Our Bishop tends to go over the Standards to reinforce conduct with the protential SPLs, too.

 

Gary_Miller explained that conduct in this case refers to Gospel teachings and Doctrine in which members of the LDS Church strive to live by. Which includes the Scout Oath and Law.

 

My question is what exactly does this discussion between the bishop and prospective SPL involve as it touches on doctrine and teachings? How can a non-LDS Church member knowledgeably discuss, let alone agree to follow, teachings of the LDS church?

 

I'm also confused about just how youth leaders are selected in a troop chartered to an LDS church, and am hoping some knowledgeable folks can help me out.

 

The handbook published at http://www.lds-scouts.org/Resources/Sct_Hndbk.pdf states that all units' main youth leaders are nominated by the bishopric and sustained by the quorum members, which for Scouting purposes constitutes election." (Note: I know this is an older version, as it refers to Explorer posts, but it's all I could find online.) It also seems to suggest (if I'm reading it correctly) that patrol leaders are not elected, but rather the deacons and teachers quorum presidents hold those roles automatically.

 

How does all that mesh with the part of the Scouting program that says patrol leaders and the SPL are elected?

[Gary_Miller]

shortridge, "My question is what exactly does this discussion between the bishop and prospective SPL involve as it touches on doctrine and teachings?"

 

The discussion would be one of worthiness. Questions would be of such to determine if one personal conduct in his life is in line with the gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Questions like do you obey or parents? Are you honest in your dealing with your fellowman? Are you morally clean? Do you live the scout Oath and Law? Do you attend all your church meetings? Do you fulfill your obligations in your church assignments?

The Bishop does have some guidelines to follow but is free to ask anything he feels is appropriate. The interview is confidential and is between the Bishop and the individual? Once the Bishop has determined that the individual is worthy of the call then he will issue an official call asking if the individual is willing to serve in the position. Its allot like a Scout Committee may ask a potential leader when interviewing them for a position.

 

shortridge, "How can a non-LDS Church member knowledgeably discuss, let alone agree to follow, teachings of the LDS church?"

 

The Bishop would not expect an individual to follow the teaching of the LDS Church. But would ask much of the same questions as for a member. And would probably ask if the individual is following the teaching of Jesus Christ as he understood them or with in the teaching of their own religion.

 

shortridge, "I'm also confused about just how youth leaders are selected in a troop chartered to an LDS church, and am hoping some knowledgeable folks can help me out."

 

Leaders are nominated and selected by the Bishop and his counselors after careful discussion and prayer. They may also consult or ask for recommendations from the youth leader/SM over the group.

 

shortridge, "The handbook published at http://www.lds-scouts.org/Resources/Sct_Hndbk.pdf states that all units' main youth leaders are nominated by the bishopric and sustained by the quorum members, which for Scouting purposes constitutes election." (Note: I know this is an older version, as it refers to Explorer posts, but it's all I could find online.) It also seems to suggest (if I'm reading it correctly) that patrol leaders are not elected, but rather the deacons and teachers quorum presidents hold those roles automatically.

 

How does all that mesh with the part of the Scouting program that says patrol leaders and the SPL are elected?"

 

The Book your looking at is the current book. When you look at that book your looking at the same one I'm looking at.

 

In the LDS Church members called to a position are the presented to the membership and membership is asked to sustain the member in their position. This is done my the show of hand in favor as well as opposed. This is considered and election.

 

So the main difference is the nomination process. In non-lds units the potential leaders are usually nominated for election by the boys. In and LDS unit the Bishop (IH)nominates interviews and the asks the quorum members (troop) for a sustaining vote.

 

 

[shortridge]

Thanks very much. The words "Gospel" and "doctrine" were a bit confusing.

 

As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop? Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a troop can hold an election if there's only one candidate; the candidate is pre-selected and approved by the CO; and there are no alternatives. That doesn't seem like an election or a youth-run program to me.

 

The quorum is a term for LDS Church members, correct? Do only quorum members have a vote to "sustain"? That's what's implied by the handbook and your answer. Do Scouts who are not members of the LDS Church have a vote?

 

As a general question to anyone out there who may know, are there any other COs that require pre-approval of PL and SPL candidates by the IH?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Gary_Miller]

shortridge, "As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop? Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?"

 

Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs.

 

shortridge, "I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a troop can hold an election if there's only one candidate; the candidate is pre-selected and approved by the CO; and there are no alternatives."

 

Well I guess you could look at it as every boy is a candidate to begin and through the selection process they are weeded down to one individual who is the put in font of the group for sustaining vote (in-favor or opposed).

 

shortridge, "That doesn't seem like an election or a youth-run program to me."

 

Its defiantly not an election as most know elections to be. I would guess that's why the book said "which for scouting purposes constitutes election". When an individual sustains someone in the church they are saying that they will support and help them to succeed in their calling/position.

 

How the leader of the group is selected has little if anything to do with wither or not the program is Youth-ran/lead.

 

shortridge, "The quorum is a term for LDS Church members, correct? Do only quorum members have a vote to "sustain"? That's what's implied by the handbook and your answer. Do Scouts who are not members of the LDS Church have a vote?"

 

If done correctly the sustaining of the SPL would be done during a troop meeting if there were non-members in the unit.

 

I know that this process of selecting leadership is different and even strange to lots of people. However, you must remember to the YM in the church who have grown-up with all the leaders in the church, from the Church president/prophet to the nursery leader in ward, being selected and sustained in this way. It's as natural as leaves growing on a tree.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

[NJCubScouter]

Shortridge asks Gary:

 

As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop? Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?

 

Before we get to Gary's answer, let's realize that there are two questions here, and they go in opposite directions. In other words, if the answer to the first one is yes, the answer to the second one will necessarily be no. If the answer to the second one is yes, the answer to the first one will necessarily be no.

 

Gary's answer is:

 

Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs.

 

But which one are you answering? I don't want to make any assumptions.

 

[Beavah]

I think the ways the LDS church has implemented the program for their young men gives the church the results they want.

 

Yeh want to be racing da 11 year olds through a heavily watered down advancement-focused, adult-driven program?

 

Whatever for?

 

From your documents, yeh seem to want to develop a real depth of experience and character in da youth. Yeh can't do that with a heavily watered down, advancement-focused, adult-driven program. Leastways, I've never seen it happen.

 

Instead what yeh get is boys with weak skills, higher accident rates and behavioral issues. Which, quite frankly a lot of us see in LDS programs.

 

While yeh have the implied "legitimacy" of the BSA and the Eagle Scout rank, I find it hard to believe that that's all yeh want for your kids. Don't yeh desire strong skills, self-confident outdoorsmanship, care for younger scouts, higher levels of youth leadership, better safety record, better demonstrated behavior by kids on their own?

 

I often tell folks they can either specify methods or outcomes. If yeh overspecify methods (11 year olds in their own program, limited camping, etc.), yeh get whatever outcomes that produces. If yeh specify outcomes, then yeh have to adjust the methods in order to get out of the program what yeh want to see in young men.

 

Beavah

 

[Gary_Miller]

shortridge, "As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop?"

 

Yes

 

 

shortridge, "Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus?"

 

Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs.

 

I hope that clears it up.

 

 

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

Beavah

 

The results are in the

 

The Scout Aims, The Scout Law, The Scout Oath, The Scout Motto, The Scout Slogan, and The Purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood

 

Purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood

 

* Become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and live its teachings.

* Serve faithfully in priesthood callings and fulfill the responsibilities of priesthood offices.

* Give meaningful service.

* Prepare and live worthily to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and temple ordinances.

* Prepare to serve an honorable full-time mission.

* Obtain as much education as possible.

* Prepare to become a worthy husband and father.

* Give proper respect to women, girls, and children.

 

Scouting is only one of the methods used by the LDS Church to obtain these results.

 

Other methods are:

 

* Sunday meeting instruction and teachings

* Family Home Evenings

* Seminary

* Church Sports Programs

* Sunday evening Fire Side chats

* Church leadership positions

* Service Projects

 

From the Churches Scouting Handbook (page 1)

You can read the full text in the link shortridge supplied above.

 

"When Properly carried out under the dirction of priesthood leaders, Scouting supplements activities for young men of the Aaronic Priesthood quorums and for eight-, nine-, ten-, and eleven-year-old Primary boys. Scouting also assists in accomplishing the eternal purposes of the priesthood and families. Scouting under Church sponsorship must not operate independently of the priesthood and the family. The Scout unit should become an extension of the home, the deacons,teachers, or priest quorum, or the Primary classes and should function as part of the Church's activity program for boys and young men.

 

Scouting can help boys and young men enhance close relationships with their families and the church while developing strong and desirable traits of character, citizenship, and physical and mental fitness, all based upon a firm belief in God. The original aims and purposes of Scouting outlined by Lord Baden-Powell were to teach boys and young men spirituality, self-reliance, service, leadership skills, emergency preparedness, and conservation of natural resources. Scouts learning these skills participate in worthwhile community, school, and Church service projects. Boys and young men from families of other faiths may also participate in Church-sponsored activities."

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Gary

 

Since you asked me to reply directly here it is, after reading your replies and some LDS scouting literature I have come to see that the LDS scouting program virtually ignores or changes the methods of scouting that interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic priesthood. The advancement method for one especially seems to be so modified that it is NOT the same as in traditional scouting, neither is a troop program boy run but controlled totally by the adults with the entire emphasis on the priesthood over authentic learning of new scout skills, advancing in rank at their own pace, and experiencing real positions of responsibility. There seems to be an "Eagle Mill" mentality in the program and among the adults that each step toward priesthood is rewarded with the next rank, whether or not it has been legitimately earned by the boy.

 

The saddest part of all in my OPINION is that the boys are FORCED into scouting and ADVANCED way too quickly, even if they are not ready, especially since all boys do not learn at the same time or the same way, the LDS model puts them all in the same cookie cutter mold not allowing their own individuality or gifts to be recognized and used in their own development. That is a serious disservice to the boys.

[shortridge]

Gary_Miller wrote: Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs.

 

I don't think anything - I'm simply trying to understand how the LDS program works. Your earlier posts referenced Jesus Christ, and there are some COs that restrict membership, so that's a natural question to ask.

 

Gary also wrote: How the leader of the group is selected has little if anything to do with wither or not the program is Youth-ran/lead.

 

Do you really believe that?

 

Under that line of thinking, America could be a monarchy but it would be OK to call ourselves a republic - because how the leader is selected doesn't have anything to do with how the country operates. As long as individual states (patrols) can make small decisions, it doesn't matter that the SPL (hereditary monarch) wasn't chosen by the people.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative or critical. I'm simply trying to understand how the youth leadership selection process you describe can in any way be called an "election," when it strikes me more as a rubber-stamping of an adult decision. How many young men are going to stand up and publicly disagree with their bishop?

 

I just find it difficult to understand how National - whose Aims & Methods explicitly describe elections as part of the patrol method - OKs that type of arrangement.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[ADCmohegan]

"I just find it difficult to understand how National - whose Aims & Methods explicitly describe elections as part of the patrol method - OKs that type of arrangement."

 

Because Shortridge, National is, and has been for at least two generations, a farce.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Gary_Miller, those are da goals I would expect.

 

But now that we've got the goals, we're left with the question of whether how well your implementation of da Scouting program is contributing to the achievement of da goals. I've no doubt that all the other things yeh mention also contribute, but I can't offer yeh any advice on how Sunday Fireside Chats are supposed to work.

 

What we in da BSA can offer are suggestions on how to best use the BSA program materials. They're only suggestions, of course, and to the extent yeh have goals that are different than the BSA's you're goin' to have to change the program, and that's fine.

 

But a lot of your goals seem to be the same, and the way you're implementing da Scouting program doesn't seem consistent with those goals.

 

The 11-year-old YM Scouting seems a particular aspect of that, because of its adult-driven advancement focus, where there really isn't enough time in da field to develop the skills required, or the behaviors expected, or the friendships forged.

 

My guess is that yeh get to some of the behaviors and friendships through other aspects of the YM program, but da skills and some of the outdoors behaviors are left very weak. Hence the safety/supervision issues with da 12-13 program.

 

The youth leader selection is certainly a novel approach, but seems quite consistent for your CO. Again the only thing that's a bit different is the lack of focus on skills and abilities, but that too may be religious in character (does a prophet have skills or abilities or does God give him what he needs when he is called?). Still, I reckon there's some need to encourage a habit of self-improvement in skills and abilities, rather than (just) waiting for God.

 

So in these ways, particularly the 11 year old YM program, yeh do depart from the BSA program and program philosophy fairly substantially, and I expect that continues with the older YM programs. Having been a fellow who was once almost killed by a group of unsupervised LDS scouts throwing rocks off a cliff without regard to da trail below, I'm not sure that yeh get the full benefit of the program in terms of character and citizenship as a result. Anecdote, of course, is not the singular of data, but there do seem to be a lot of "incidents" in the intermountain west.

 

How much freedom do you and your local bishop have to re-envision things? Could you, for example, choose a different path locally, one where yeh used an expanded Webelos II program for YM-11, then built a 12-15 program that went TF to Life? The 14-15's could be the PLs and other troop positions while they worked for Star and Life and the 12-13's could be the patrol members workin' toward First Class under their direction. The 16-17 year old YM venturers could provide support as JASMs and TG's and instructors while they worked toward Eagle (and their own adventures), which would be a good prep for their mission. And the 11-year-old YM's would remain more tightly tied to family involvement in an expanded webelos program just da way the church desires.

 

Is that possible in your structure? For a local ward or stake to make changes in that way, as a pilot for the rest of the Church?

 

Care to give it a try? Seems like, given all we know about how to do good Scouting, that such a change would do a better job for yeh. It would also likely reduce a few of the negative perceptions yeh find in the broader scouting/outdoors community.

 

Beavah

 

[NJCubScouter]

I thought something seemed strange in Beavah's last couple of posts, and then I realized... Beavah, do you realize that, except on the issue of safety, you have now contradicted everything you said in your first post in this thread, four days ago? It's on page 3. Four days ago, everything the LDS troops were doing was fine, except for safety, now there are all kinds of problems. What gives?

[acco40]

A Scoutmaster serves the same function - they screen candidate for SPL, PL etc.

[BDPT00]

 

 

 

Could. Might not.

A Scoutmaster, however, is a registered Scouter, member of the troop, hopefully trained, and knows his Scouts.

I hope you're not suggesting it's the same action.

BDPT00