The LDS Scouting program and BSA program

[Eagle92]

Gary,

 

 

#1 thanks for understanding

 

#2 Thanks for rationally answering questions, leanring alot.

 

Now in reference to only allowing 11years old to camp 3 times a year, why is that? I remember as an 11yo the two troops I was in camped every month but December (too difficult to plan a trip with everythign going on, had Christmas COH instead). So I did 1o campouts ( sorry I didn't do summer camp so I missed that month)

[GernBlansten]

My son as an 11 year old scout, camped over 30 nights. Had a ball. Did things his non-scouting friends even dreamed of. That alone segregates LDS scouting from the rest of us!

[Scoutfish]

Baden,

In hopes that I might actually understand Gary, I'm gonna attempt to answer those 4 questions.

 

Of course, I am only doing to to mostly see for myself if

1) I understand Gary,

2) To possibly clear up a toe-may-toe vs tah-ma-toe arguement that I think is happening.

 

I have no doubt Gary will point out any errors I have...and I gladly accept those corrections.

 

BadenP askes:

 

1)The main/primary purpose of the LDS scouting program is to prepare young men to achieve the Aaronic Priesthood?

 

*I'm gonna say no. That is not the purpose of a LDS scouting program.

 

The reality is that the LDS youth program's purpose is to help young men achievethe Aaronic Priesthood. And the LDS's recognize the powerfull tool that Scouting can be to reach that goal. Scouting is but one of many tools that LDS utilize to reach that goal.

 

 

2)Incorporated into the troop meetings are rituals and rites that are not scouting but recognizing a boy reaching certain stages toward priesthood and are recognized as part of their scouting advancement?

 

*No, but why not? In my pack, we say grace before meals. hold scouts own, and do what our culture does sometimes..including applause, silence, pledge of Allegiance to the flag. If we were Muslim, we might stop at certain times to pray to Allah. If we were bhuddist, we might stop and take our shoes off before the flag ceremony. Maybe we don't do a flag ceremony depending on who our CO is.

 

So it's not that a rite is incorporated ointo a scout meeting, but that the individual happens to do a normal ( to his belief rite) while also participating in a scout meeting. Kinda like saying "God bless you!" to a person who has sneezed even if they are athiest..it's who you are, not WHAT you are doing or WHERE you are when you did it.

 

 

3) An LDS scout can still achieve scout ranks without attending meetings or campouts IF they are doing work for the church and the goal of priesthood?

 

*Probably more like the exception that non-LDS troops and packs follow when the youth from those packs miss meetings due to other obligations - wether school, sports, church, or family. But remember, scouting is a tool of the LDS youth program, not vice versa.

 

 

4) Many LDS scout leaders purposely do not attend district camporees or events because they view mainstream scout units as a bad influence on their boys on their quest to achieving priesthood?

 

 

* I'm gonna say that the truth is, Many LDS units do not attend district camporees because of other factors that may be in conflict with their religion.

 

For example, I have a co-worker who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness. He will take his child to a school fall fun festival, but not a Halloween festival.

He will accept year end work bonuses in December, but not a Christmas bonus. Same thing finacially, but different theologically.

 

So maybe it's not so much what other units do at camporees...but what they don't do....and what the LDS faith needs to doto keep within it's beliefs.

 

Okay Gary...Was I even close?

 

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

Scoutfish,"Okay Gary...Was I even close?"

 

Yes and No.

 

BadenP,"Please don't quote me out of context as you did in your last post."

 

I did not mean to quote you out of context. Please show me where and I will correct it.

 

BadenP, "So to clear up some questions for me then,"

 

BadenP,"1)The main/primary purpose of the LDS scouting program is to prepare young men to achieve the Aaronic Priesthood?"

 

No, worthy YM recieve the Aaronic Priesthood at the age of 12.

 

From the LDS Scouting Handbook

 

"In 1913, the church adopted Scouting a part of the activity program for Aaronic Priesthood quorums and later for Primary boys ages eight and older. By providing opportunities for boys and young men to put into practice the gospel lessons the learn in the home and at church, Scouting programs have been used to support the priesthood. The most widely accepted Scouting methods program is known throughout the world as the "Baden-Powell Movement," founded by Robert, Lord Baden-Powell, a retired British army general.

 

Under priesthood leadership, Scouting can complement the purposes of the Aaronic Preisthood quorums and Primary classes in building testimonies in boys and young men. Scouting can help boys and young men love and serve the Savior and honor their parents.

 

Priesthood leaders may wish to rely on the following quote by Baden-Powell as a measure of any Scouting Program's effectiveness.

 

"Don"t let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, backwoodsmanship, camping, hiking, good works, Jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is character-character with a purpose" (Footsteps of the Founder, ed. Mario Sica [Milano: Editrice Ancora Milano, 1984}, 125

 

BadenP,"2)Incorporated into the troop meetings are rituals and rites that are not scouting but recognizing a boy reaching certain stages toward priesthood and are recognized as part of their scouting advancement?"

 

No, there are not rituals and rites associated with LDS scouting that is not part of the BSA program.

 

There are different stages of the priesthood in which a YM receives more authority to to preform different responsibilities within the church. But these are not recognized as part of their scouting advancement.

 

BadenP,"3) An LDS scout can still achieve scout ranks without attending meetings or campouts IF they are doing work for the church and the goal of priesthood?"

 

Not in any LDS scouting unit I have worked with and not within the churches BSA program. An LDS scout has to do all the requirements like any other scout as defined in the current advancement guidebook.

 

BadenP,"4) Many LDS scout leaders purposely do not attend district camporees or events because they view mainstream scout units as a bad influence on their boys on their quest to achieving priesthood?"

 

While there maybe some who feel this way, I have yet to meet any of them. I can't speak for what other leaders may do. I can only tell you what I do and what is suppose to be done with in the program.

 

BadenP,"Now Gary before your answers it may interest you that I had the LDS Stake VP as my district vice chairman for five years"

 

First of all there is no such position as "Stake VP". The Stake presidency is composed of the President and two counselors.

 

BadenP,"and during that time I was invited to many of these special LDS scout and nonscout ceremonies within my district."

 

I believe you. However, I think you have been misguided on what was really happening. Maybe if you elaborate on what was happening at these ceremonies, it would help me to understand what was going on.

 

BadenP, "So unless you can show me that this stake was some kind of rogue group I will stand by my posts and observations and conversations with LDS scouters and church leaders."

 

Ok, however what you have so far posted is in correct as I see scouting in the LDS church.

 

But I'm only one person with years of experience and knowledge in the LDS churches scouting programs. I'm sure others may have a different view. However, my only goal is to clear-up the miss understanding to the best of my ability.

[Gary_Miller]

shortridge,"You need three, clearly. But there are other requirements that go along with camping. By just allowing three campouts, the program does limit the number of boys that can earn First Class to six. Requirement 4(e) says that a Scout must cook breakfast, lunch and dinner that he planned. If you just spend six days camping, then only six boys can complete that requirement (and that's assuming the patrol camps for two full days)."

 

You have to remember that the LDS Church uses the age method for CS and not Grade. Therefore, you have boys at different stages of advancement throughout a year. If the campouts are stage properly it works out really well. When I was the 11 yr old Scout leader. We did a campout in the spring another one during the summer and one in the fall. it worked out really well and enabled a boy to attend all three campouts throughout his year in the 11 yr old scout patrol. Just like other scouting units not every boy completed 1st class in one year. However, they were only a few requirement away, usually it was a campout.

 

Eagle92,"Now in reference to only allowing 11years old to camp 3 times a year, why is that?"

 

It's just the guidelines the church has established. I really don't know the reasoning behind the guideline. I can only guess its due to maturity and age, as well as a transition period to the regular troop and camping. But thats just my opion.

 

GernBlansten, "That alone segregates LDS scouting from the rest of us!"

 

I guess you could look at it that way.

 

However, remember BSA guidelines allows a CO to a just the program for the youth they serve, as long as it does not take away or add to the program. using the program within the BSA.

 

Limiting the number of campouts the new scout patrol can do is no different than a unit limiting the type of camping/activity the new scout patrol can do, because of experience.

 

 

 

 

 

[jhankins]

I'll say it again. How a Charter Organization chooses to use the program doesn't change the program.

 

All my boys go through scoutmaster conferences and boards of review, just like a non LDS boy. We have Interfaith worship services, the boys have the exact same requirements, participate in the Order of the Arrow, work with the AmVets to serve veterans and yes, we even hold fundraisers.

 

Just because there is a definition to how the program is executed doesn't change the core content of the program. It's called by-laws or instructions, and there's nothing wrong with it, and doesn't change a non-LDS boy into a Mormon.

 

The little green book states that an 11 year old may have 3 campouts PER YEAR until he turns 12. So that's six campouts during his age span, not 3.

 

The First Class requirement to cook breakfast, lunch and dinner he planned, that can happen on an all day outing. We've taken our boys on an all day hike/skills camp without camping overnight. They got up early in the morning, set up camp, did skills, went on a hike, prepared their meals, and had a blast, all without using one of our precious nights of camping.

 

The Boy Scouts of America serves as the activity arm, the practical use of the skills of the young men's program of the LDS church. Scouting is helping the church accomplish a goal. Uh... That's what Scouting does for ALL charter partners. That's how it's written in the texts, that's how DEs market scouting, and that's how the program should be run. Scouting helps organizations accomplish their goals.

 

We have secret ceremonies in my units. It's called the Pledge of Allegiance, an opening prayer, and heaven forbid it, yes, we sing! There are no dissertations or explanations of the message of the Pearl of Great Price. BadenP, I'm sorry, if you were privy to church teachings within the confines of a Troop meeting, that's not what's written in the literature, and it's not done everywhere. As a professional with 70% LDS units, I attended more than 30 Eagle ceremonies, 30-40 pack meetings, 50 or so troop and crew meetings, and never once was asked to do anything out of the ordinary. I was even asked to attend a Bishop's Leader's meeting with a Stake President, and the only odd thing I was asked to do was pray on bended knee.

 

It still seems as if people in the thread consider the LDS church a cult and think therefore, there must be something secret happening to the boys to indoctrinate them.

 

[GernBlansten]

I can't get my head around what the possible benefit would be to limit a new scout's camping to 3 nights a year?

[Eagle92]

Gern,

 

I too do not understand limiting an 11 YO's camping experiences. The only thing I can think of is that previously BSA limited the campouts an 11 y.o. Cub Scout could take, yes you were a Cub until you turned 12 at one time, and the LDS church has kept that formula.

[shortridge]

jhankins wrote: "The little green book states that an 11 year old may have 3 campouts PER YEAR until he turns 12. So that's six campouts during his age span, not 3."

 

All right, color me really confused! An 11-year-old boy is only 11 for one year. He is only allowed to go on three campouts during that year. How do you turn three into six?

 

"The First Class requirement to cook breakfast, lunch and dinner he planned, that can happen on an all day outing. We've taken our boys on an all day hike/skills camp without camping overnight. They got up early in the morning, set up camp, did skills, went on a hike, prepared their meals, and had a blast, all without using one of our precious nights of camping."

 

If that's the way your troop is doing it, then you're detracting from the requirements. It clearly states it has to be done on a campout, and that the boy serve as the patrol cook - not just cook an individual meal with a group of other Scouts also cooking their individual meals on a day hike.

 

First Class 4e states: "On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup."

 

Three campouts seems an arbitrary number to me, and I'm really curious as to the actual reason why. Not trying to pick or poke or criticize, but just curious.

[gcnphkr]

"It still seems as if people in the thread consider the LDS church a cult"

 

I spent some 15 years in a cult. There are many wonderful, loving and generous people in cults. Heck, I like most cult members that I've met--both in my cult and others. Everyone of them will loudly declare that they are not in a cult. Just ask any member of the Church of Scientology, the Unification Church or the International Churches of Christ. Even after leaving they will have a hard time admitting they were in a cult. Typically they will say that the group had certain cult-like characteristics. What makes the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons "legitimate" is size and age. Once the cult gets over about a half-million members and 75 - 100 years old, it becomes difficult to call them a cult. Nothing else has changed, but now they are big and have been around for so long that they must not be a cult.

 

I'm sure Gary and others will howl. I really don't care if they are a cult or not. If they do scouting right then great. If not then shame on them for not doing it right.

[qwazse]

Short: All right, color me really confused! An 11-year-old boy is only 11 for one year. He is only allowed to go on three campouts during that year. How do you turn three into six?

 

Your not confused, you just need statistical consultant ...

 

11th birthday in June: camps thrice before December.

Happy New year: camps thrice before June.

12 birthday: the govener's off camps forever.

 

Kinda tough on those January babies, huh? Be it 3 or six, that doesn't put the limit on the potential number of 1st class recipients. You could have 24 camping nights, with 4 different groups of 11 y/o's cooking on each.

 

Seems like a lot to work around the letter of the law, but if you had 24 kids all wanting and working to knock of FC, wouldn't you bend over backwards to give them the opportunity? Besides, you might want to encourage a little one-upsmanship. By night 18 I bet you'd be eating pretty good!

[BadenP]

Gary

Thank you for your explaination, and let me state for the record that I have some very good friends, for over 20 years now, who are LDS scouters or former scouters and believe me we have discussed these things in detail. Oh by the way my asst. District Chair was the stake president not the vp, a typo. As I said before I have great respect for the LDS and the care shown towards family, as well as members that are going through tough times.

 

My personal experiences with LDS scouting, especially my week at Philmont with LDS scouting was a real eye opener to me, and in my view there just seems to be a large overemphasis on the priesthood over the "traditional" scouting program. As an outsider I know my perspective may be somewhat skewed, and I am going to order the LDS scouting handbooks to compare and see if there have been some changes over the years. At an upcoming Venturing Extravaganza for the first time ever the three LDS crews in our district have said they would be attending, so this will be a good chance to see LDS Venturing firsthand.

[Beavah]

Yah, thanks to Gary for his patient sharing. I learned a few things.

 

I think that one of da issues is that most rank and file scouters don't really understand the Scouting program of the BSA. As we see here repeatedly, they seem to want some centralized, standardized, highly regulated and controlled thing akin to the U.S. Armed Forces. From precision uniforming to the UCMJ, everything spelled out and regulated by central authority.

 

That's just not the scouting program, eh? It's just that the average scouter doesn't "get" the whole CO thing, and even those who learn about it began their thinking in the central authority mode and never really change. What the BSA does is provide program materials and resources for COs to use as they see fit to achieve their aims. Only a few things, like the advancement requirements and uniform are standardized, and only in a sort of cursory way, not anywhere near da model of the Armed Forces.

 

As a materials and resources provider, the BSA is rightly delighted that a large customer thinks highly enough of their stuff to adopt it wholesale. And I don't care what business or service you are in, if you have a large customer you of course are responsive to their needs. LDS units aren't the only ones who get their own weeks; you'll see Catholic Scouters weeks at Philmont too, eh? Heck, lots of struggling scout camps would kill for a full-subscription week and would be delighted to tailor it to any group that could fill the camp. It would save their camp for another year.

 

Just normal stuff. And anybody can write supplemental materials for their program. Lots of units use Mark Ray's books of Eagle Ceremonies or SM guide materials in addition to the BSA books; heck, most scout shops sell a whole mess of supplemental books beyond the BSA stuff. Every denomination puts out it's own religious award books and materials. So what's the big deal about da LDS having a few supplemental materials books for LDS scouting? As far as I know, the Catholics, Methodists, and even UUA have such things as well.

 

Yah, I agree that LDS units often aren't strong district participants, eh? But then neither are a lot of non-LDS units. In fact, some of da strongest scouting programs in our council and many others aren't real active in their districts. Remember, the district is a service to the units, not vice versa. That's something that many district scouters seem to forget.

 

So to my mind, LDS are doin' the right thing, and the detractors are the ones who really need to spend more time learning about how BSA scouting works.

 

My only concern about LDS units is da safety issue. With only 3 campouts a year, making First Class would be fairly extremely on the "light" side of the way yeh can interpret the advancement requirements. So the lads skills are goin' to be pretty weak. Then they join the 12-13 program, where you've put a whole mess of hyper lads with limited skills together in the woods. I remember seeing that the average term of office for a SM in that program is only a year, so yeh have those lads with limited experience, no older scouts, some who are there because they "have to be", being led by a gent with no real scouting experience and perhaps no real experience with youth that age or the outdoors. That's a recipe for higher accident rates, and that's pretty much what we seem to see, especially in da intermountain west.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[sherminator505]

"Limiting the number of campouts the new scout patrol can do is no different than a unit limiting the type of camping/activity the new scout patrol can do, because of experience."

 

I would argue that there is a world of difference there. I would agree with the notion that a new scout patrol probably isn't up to a Philmont trek, but I find that new scouts tend to stay more engaged when they get out as often as possible.

[BadenP]

If any of you are interested on the LDS scout website that OGE referenced in his post you can read and download the LDS Scouting and Venturing Handbooks, after reading both of them the wording of the texts the focus applies entirely to stages to the Aaronic priesthood and very little about the scout ranks. There are mention of rites performed during advancement to acknowledge achieving the next step to priesthood that are not related to the scouting program.

 

After reading these texts they seem to validate what I had been saying to Bart and Gary about the differences in LDS scouting and why a non LDS scout might have a hard time fitting into an LDS troop. Gary I wish you would take a look at this site and tell me if this is indeed standard LDS scouting or is this a splintered off group and not typical of LDS scouting. Thanks.