The LDS Scouting program and BSA program

[Eagle92]

BD,

usually the bishops are the IH and COR,so they are also registered leaders.

 

But I agree I don't think the LDS method of is really the patrol method. Sometimes youth need to learn the consequences of not taking an election seriously, and voting for the wrong person.

 

[Gary_Miller]

BDPT00, "Could. Might not.

A Scoutmaster, however, is a registered Scouter, member of the troop, hopefully trained, and knows his Scouts.

I hope you're not suggesting it's the same action."

 

A Bishop is a registered Scouter (IH), member of the troop, team and crew, hopefully trained, and knows his Young Men in most cases better than the scout leaders.

 

It is the same action.

 

[BadenP]

Gary

 

I appreciate your candor in defense of LDS scouting, and the detailed explanations you have been providing. However the scouting literature the LDS church produces, and which I have obtained from an LDS bookstore down the road from me, paints a very different picture, as does explanations from my LDS scouter friends. "The primary purpose of the scouting program in the LDS church is to insure that all young men obtain the Aaronic priesthood." direct quote from two long time LDS scouter friends of mine, and is similiarly stated in the LDS scout literature. On that point alone LDS scouting is NOT the same as traditional scouting.

 

The methodology of LDS scouting is all aimed toward achieving different stages of priesthood each of which is tied to a different boy scout rank. Yes you guys go camping and teach your boys different basic scout skills, but there seems to be no development of advanced skills as the boys progress in rank, instead that has been replaced with developing skills to make them become competent ministers/missionaries for the church, which is a huge difference from traditional scouting programs.

 

I truly wish you and LDS scouting well, however I have not seen any evidence that contradicts anything with what I have posted in this thread, and the bottom line still remains LDS scouting is definitely not the same as traditional scouting programs.

[Gary_Miller]

BadenP,"Since you asked me to reply directly here it is, after reading your replies and some LDS scouting literature I have come to see that the LDS scouting program virtually ignores or changes the methods of scouting that interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic priesthood."

 

Not sure what literature you have been reading but it clear form your posts that 1: You have some in correct information. or 2: You don't understand what it is your reading. I think its both.

 

I've said it many times a properly organized, ran and applied LDS Scouting program, does not ignore or change the methods of scouting. Nor does the scouting program interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic Priesthood. The fact is what a boy does in scouting has nothing to do with he receiving and advancing in the Aaronic Priesthood, that is all based on his personal worthiness.

 

On the other hand a properly organized, ran and applied Scouting program and Aaronic Priesthood program. Complement each other in a positive away. Used correctly in the ward they mesh together in developing YM who have strong community, social, moral and religious values. Which produces YM who are strong leaders society.

 

 

BadenP, "The advancement method for one especially seems to be so modified that it is NOT the same as in traditional scouting,"

 

Your going to have to provide facts and proof to back up this statement. As the fact is the advancement method is the exact same ones in the BSA Handbook.

 

BadenP, "neither is a troop program boy run but controlled totally by the adults with the entire emphasis on the priesthood over authentic learning of new scout skills, advancing in rank at their own pace, and experiencing real positions of responsibility."

 

Like I said at the very very first post in this thread, "Pay close attention to the words "suppose to" and "properly ran".",

 

A "properly ran" program is the exact same program as the one in the BSA literature. With the exception of the new scout patrol and the selection of the SPL, which has already been discussed, everything else is "suppose to" be ran the same.

 

Are there program happening like you described. I would say yes, for I have seen them. However, they are not being properly implemented and ran according to the BSA or church guidelines and instructions.

 

BadenP, "There seems to be an "Eagle Mill" mentality in the program and among the adults that each step toward priesthood is rewarded with the next rank, whether or not it has been legitimately earned by the boy."

 

I will not disagree that among many leaders there is and "Eagle Mill" mentality. However, these programs are not being properly ran.

 

As far as the priesthood being rewarded with the next rank. The pristhood is not rewarded it is given to a YM when the YM meets the proper age and worthiness standard. The scouting rank of an individual has nothing to do with him receiving and being ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood.

 

BadenP, "The saddest part of all in my OPINION is that the boys are FORCED into scouting"

 

While scouting is the activity program for boys and YM. No one is FORCED to do scouting. All have their free agency to decide what they want to do. However the program for the church is scouting, and unless they are new to the church the boys and YM have grownup knowing this and in most cases look forward to being Boy Scouts.

 

Its been my experience that in those case where the YM is not interested in scouting it because the unit has a poorly improperly ran program.

 

BadenP, "and ADVANCED way too quickly, even if they are not ready, especially since all boys do not learn at the same time or the same way, the LDS model puts them all in the same cookie cutter mold not allowing their own individuality or gifts to be recognized and used in their own development. That is a serious disservice to the boys."

 

If your statement was true then the LDS scouting programs would have 100% Eagle Scouts and we all know that does not happen.

 

YM in the LDS church scouting program advance at their own pace at all different times, and some don't advance at all.

 

 

[VigilNavyCPO]

100% Eagle.

 

One reason I have trouble with the LDS program is that a LDS Troop locally does have 100% Eagle by age 15. Do they earn it, no. This also has the effect of lowering the perception of the value of Eagle for non-LDS Scouts in local non-LDS Troops. (Why work hard when little Johnny gets it for showing up at a meeting every Wed?) I know Council knows of these issues, but number of Scouts (& money) LDS brings them causes them to look the other way.

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

BadenP, "However the scouting literature the LDS church produces, and which I have obtained from an LDS bookstore down the road from me, paints a very different picture, as does explanations from my LDS scouter friends."

 

The only literature that the LDS church produces on scouting is the "Scouting Handbook" which a link was provided earlier in the tread to, and the on Titled "Scouting and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" put out by the BSA LDS Relationship Website. The information I have provided have come from these resources, as well as my experience.

 

While I know there is other literature on line and in book stores that literature while not totally in accurate are the opion of the author.

 

What is the name of the books you purchased? I'm always looking for good books about scouting.

 

As for your scouter friends I don' know them or their experiance with the scouting program both in the LDS Church and the BSA. However, I would like to state that I find many LDS leaders who don't fully understand how the program in the church is "suppose to" be ran.

 

BadenP, "The primary purpose of the scouting program in the LDS church is to insure that all young men obtain the Aaronic priesthood." direct quote from two long time LDS scouter friends of mine, and is similiarly stated in the LDS scout literature. On that point alone LDS scouting is NOT the same as traditional scouting."

 

Funny as I don't find anything close to your quote in any of the literature I have read. Pleas provide a source so I can read it.

 

While your doing that I will refer you to the first page of the LDS Church Scouting Handbook. (link found in this tread somewhere). Read the section titled " The purpose of Scouting in the Aaronic Priesthood (that's what we call the Church program for YM) and Primary (thats what we call Church program for boys)."

 

I think if you read it for understanding you will see that scouting "complements the purpose of Aaronic Priesthood quorums and Primary classes in building testimonies in boys and young men."

 

BadenP, "The methodology of LDS scouting is all aimed toward achieving different stages of priesthood each of which is tied to a different boy scout rank."

 

This is simply not true and can not be found in any literature put out by the church.

 

BadenP, "Yes you guys go camping and teach your boys different basic scout skills, but there seems to be no development of advanced skills as the boys progress in rank,"

 

Now your starting to make me laugh. What advance skills would you be talking about.

 

BadenP, "instead that has been replaced with developing skills to make them become competent ministers/missionaries for the church,"

 

What skills would you be talking about here. Would it be leadership skills, I guess not since the Scouting teaches that. Maybe it the skills needed to talk in front of a group, nope scouting teaches that also. Maybe it how to cook ones own dinner, oh I forgot scouting teaches that as well.

 

The only one I can think of is church doctrine. And yes we discuss doctrine in all our meetings and every chance we get to teach the boys what they need to serve themselves, their families, their community, their savior, Jesus Christ, and their fellow men.

 

If thats what your talking about then yes we are guilty as charged.

 

BadenP, "which is a huge difference from traditional scouting programs."

 

I'll give you that one, but only because the way the church uses the program to complement religious instruction is different from other CO's. However, the program is not different.

 

BadenP, "I truly wish you and LDS scouting well, however I have not seen any evidence that contradicts anything with what I have posted in this thread, and the bottom line still remains LDS scouting is definitely not the same as traditional scouting programs."

 

I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I honestly thought you to be a more open minded individual. What I have shown and explained is the truth about the LDS church and the BSA Scouting program. I believe that both are perfect programs and are a gift given to us from God to help YM become good people, and if there is any faults they are the faults of men not carrying out the programs properly.

[Twocubdad]

Question for you, Gary.

 

Let's say a boy simply does not want to participate in Scouting. Totally wigged out at the idea of spending the night in the woods, doesn't like bugs, uniforms, whatever. But is otherwise active in the other half of the YM program and very faithful to his other obligations to the church.

 

How does that affect is membership, his status in the priesthood, future leadership within the church, etc.?

[shortridge]

Gary,

 

I'm wondering if you had any sort of reply to this comment I posted on page 7.

 

- I'm simply trying to understand how the youth leadership selection process you describe can in any way be called an "election," when it strikes me more as a rubber-stamping of an adult decision. How many young men are going to stand up and publicly disagree with their bishop? -

 

Have you ever seen that happen? Ever, in your years of Scouting, seen a candidate selected by the bishop/IH rejected by his peers?

 

I'm also wondering why this system is used - why selection vs. election. Is there a theological underpinning to this method that you are able to explain to non-church members? Or if it's just a system that works well for the church - why does it work well, and what benefits does it confer?

[GernBlansten]

100% Eagle?

Never heard that before. What is the percentage of scouts in the LDS program that started as cubbies and obtain Eagle. I think its about 5% Nationally. I'm pretty sure the LDS is higher than average, but what is the success to Eagle percentage for the LDS run units? If its that high, I'd suggest the BSA abandon traditional programs and follow the LDS one. They clearly are doing it the right way. Eh?

[AKdenldr]

Thanks Gary for all your time helping us understand the LDS scouting program.

 

One thing I see around here is very small troops. Troops are associated with Wards. (And there is some rule about Wards not joining up to sponsor a troop.) So what I've seen is 11 year old groups with 2 or 3 active boys. I'm assuming then, that the next up group is just double that size, being for 2 years. A lot of adult association for sure, but less of the other methods.

 

Are my perceptions wrong?

 

(Thanks for your service to scouting and these boards.)

[BadenP]

Gary

I try to be open minded, but the literature I read corresponds closely to the information on the site OGE referenced, but lets put all the literature aside for a moment, which seems to support my viewpoint rather than yours.

 

My personal experience with LDS scouting as both a SM and DE:

1)The troops tend to be small 5-6 boys.

2)All LDS troops I have had contact with have an extremely high number of Eagles,50-75% and many by the age of 13.

3)At district events the LDS troops show a sad lack of scout skills during contests and competitions.

4)LDS SM's tend to have less training than their counterparts and very few show more than a very rudimentary knowledge of basic scout skills.

5)LDS troops tend to be loners rather than joiners.

6)You yourself have stated that "church doctrines and scripture are a central part of each troop meeting, and that the scouting and Aaronic priesthood compliment each other." This is only true because the LDS Church has so modified and changed the scouting program that they fit the scouting within the Aaronic Priesthood preparation and not the other way around as it should be if it were truly a boy scout program.

 

Still Gary you seem like an honest and well intended scouter who cares about his boys, but your own church's literature makes no real distinction or seperation between scouting and the priesthood and LDS Scouting veers way off the pathway of traditional scout programs.

[bacchus]

Gary,

 

About the longest one of these threads is really worth is 3 pages and then the same material and accusations just get churned over and over. Part of the problem is there are so many people out there who believe there just has to be something wrong with a program that has been adopted by the Church. Part of the problem is that so many of us LDS guys believe that by posting this stuff we are going to get people to see the light, that our program is "just as good as theirs." It isn't "just as good", it's just different. In many ways our program is not "as good" as theirs because we are trying to find ways to instill quorum identity, and they don't even work with quorums. Their diversity of age goes completely against the idea of our quorum identity.

 

So get your feedback from about 3 pages worth of posts, and use that to try to improve what you have. Don't try to convert these other guys to a program where they have an 11 year old patrol, and then the 12-13 year olds are the rest of the Troop, the 14-15 year olds are a Varsity Team, and the 16-18 are a Venturing Crew. It isn't going to happen. You may not even be aware of it, but neither you nor they are going to be satisfied with this thread until one side caves and agrees to the other side.

 

There isn't anything wrong with you and me running a scout program how we are asked to, and meeting all the methods at the same time. There is also great strength in working jointly with LDS and non-LDS. The feedback you are getting in this thread is even helpful. I'm just saying this thread has gone beyond the point of usefulness. (I mean seriously, we have professionals in this thread saying things that are obviously not true).

[Gary_Miller]

The purpose of this tread was to try and help people better understand that a properly ran Scouting Program used in LDS units is the same one as put forth by the Boy Scouts of America. I think that has been shown in the discussion. While I will agree that in some areas the way the program is implement is different it is still the same program.

 

In no way was I trying to convince anyone to change their program that was never my intent. However, if I was able to help someone understand how the LDS program is suppose to be ran, and maybe even helped one LDS leader in better understanding the program in the church then I have accomplished what I set out to do.

 

But I have to agree with "bacchus" this thread has gone behind its usefulness and has started to turn in to more of an argument, than one of honest information seeking and understanding.

 

So with that I will end my side of the discussion, within this tread.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Gary, I hope you read this before you leave.

 

Look at it from this perspective with this analogy.

 

The two BSA programs (LDS vs non-LDS), is like comparing a helicopter and an airplane.

 

Both are aircraft. Both are useful and serve their purpose for which they are designed. Both are governed by the same agency. But they are different. Yet some helicopter pilots might claim there is no difference. Some airplane pilots might claim they are not even in the same category. Some might claim one is superior to the other. But in reality, they can't be compared except at the highest level, they are both aircraft.

 

Some of us airplane pilots fly out of airports with lots of helicopters. We know there are differences. Some of us airplane pilots fly where there are no helicopters. They may not even be aware or care there are differences. Some helicopter pilots fly out of heliports only.

They are similar, but different.

 

Now the difference between a Methodist troop and a Catholic troop would be analogous to comparing a Cessna with a Piper. Pretty much the same, with a few features that a discriminating observer might identify.

[BartHumphries]

What's wrong with the LDS church promulgating a goal for boys of going on a mission after they "graduate" from Boy Scouts? Sure, they could be part of a Venture crew for another two years, but it's the LDS church's standpoint that after a person turns 18 they should start hanging around with other people over 18, so the church tends to send 18+ aged people off to the Young Single Adult groups for people 18-30.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the LDS church promoting Scouting while keeping in mind its own principles (which really aren't different from basic Scouting principles). The LDS church just wants to reinforce Baden-Powell's statement that the point isn't camping/backpacking, those are just the tools we use to build good men.

 

That's like getting upset that a Rotary troop makes sure the boys are all familiar with the four principles. Such things are basically just a restatement of Scouting principles and ideals and there's no point in getting all worked up about a charter organization having its own guiding set of principles and ideals which echo Scouting's and which are also taught to the boys.