Charlotte church refuses to allow Mormans to be leaders

[Twocubdad]

Question:

 

Could this not be resolved by requiring units to charter as either "open" or "restricted" units? Maybe further sub-divide the restricted classifications into "restricted leadership?"

 

Open units would accept all comers, obviously subject to stated BSA membership policy.

 

Restricted Leadership units would be open to all youth, but adult leadership would be restricted to members of the CO.

 

Of course, Restricted units would be closed to the public and serve only the members of the CO.

 

This is all allowed now, just formalizing and publicizing what is currently taking place. Seems to me it would be difficult to argue if all the rules are known up front.

 

I can't be the first one to think of this. Maybe E92 or BP can explain from the organizational perspective why this won't work.

 

And yes, I understand that the words "open" and "restricted" have also sorts of legal, political and cultural baggage. But let's not get too hung up on the words. Legal can work that out later.

[emb021]

Sometimes its useful to look at other orgs.

 

 

I'm also a member of Toastmasters, which is an international org devoted to public speaking & leadership.

 

The group has been around about 80 years or so.

 

TM is open to ALL who are 18 and older. (AFAIK, that's really the only membership restriction: you must be an adult). TM basically went co-ed sometime in the 70s, and I believe it was things like Title IX and the like that had an effect, as many clubs were chartered to government bodies, and when issues like gender restrictions became an issue, TM knew they had to change or risk loosing many clubs. (sound familiar?? My Fraternity went thru similiar issues at the same time)

 

The only membership restriction is that we basically have 2 types of clubs: open clubs and corporate clubs. Open clubs are open to everyone and anyone to join. Corporate clubs are chartered to companies, who restrict membership to just their employees. Now there are 'open corporate clubs', clubs chartered to companies, but which do NOT restrict their membership to company employees.

 

But that's the only kind of membership restriction (other then age) that is allowed.

 

 

[qwazse]

Allowing "open" and "restricted" CO's does little more than codify what CO's can do in the first place! And I don't think it really helps parents joining a unit. Some CO's might not know they are "restricted" until someone whose beliefs don't represent their own steps to the fore.

 

There could be lots of reasons for this. I know a Jewish adult leader whose troop is under a Catholic CO b/c his reformed rabbi is towing the line about the homosexuality issue. This causes extensive "hoop jumping" on everyone's part. (CO insists the troop find a mass for the Catholic boys if they are out on a Sunday -- what to do with the non-Catholics/non-Christians -- etc...) But, working it out at least helps avoid the press. (HEADLINE NEWS: MOST FOLKS IN NATION WORKING TOGETHER IN SPITE OF RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES ... really doubt it would get past the editor's desk.)

 

So, I think it is better for each unit to communicate up front to parents what is the general leaning of the CO.

 

 

[BadenP]

I still say the scout program would run a whole lot smoother if there was no religious component in it. This PC bull about accomodating one religion versus another and who would be the best leaders would not be based on emotional or spiritual reasons, rather who is the best qualified. The LDS can still have their own version of scouting, but everyone elses units would and should be open to all. In other threads we discuss it is against BSA policy to add rules and requirements to the programs, yet the religious CO's by requiring certain religious policies or doctrine be added are doing just that. In that case then we would have to have seperate scout programs for each faith tradition sponsoring a scout unit, like the LDS, and that is when scouting becomes a religious program first and foremost and the scouting program of Baden Powell becomes of secondary importance.

 

The CO Agreement between the chartering and organization, signed each year, and the BSA states that they will use the BSA program as an outreach to the youth of its community, it does not say that the program can and will be used as an indoctrination/propaganda tool for their specific church or organization.

[Gary_Miller]

BadenP, "The LDS can still have their own version of scouting, but everyone elses units would and should be open to all."

 

Funny I did not know the LDS units had their own version of scouting. Last I looked they used the same BSA written material as everyone else, and their units were open to everyone.

 

BadenP, "In that case then we would have to have separate scout programs for each faith tradition sponsoring a scout unit, like the LDS, and that is when scouting becomes a religious program first and foremost and the scouting program of Baden Powell becomes of secondary importance."

 

Funny I did not know the LDS units had "separate Scout programs" from what BSA as implemented.

 

BadenP, you really need to do your homework when it comes to how the LDS Church uses the programs of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Gary

 

I was as DE for five years and over 25% of my units were LDS so I became VERY familiar with the way LDS do the boy scout program. You are naive to think that LDS Boy Scouts do not use the program to prepare their boys for missionary activity at 18. It promotes the churches agenda and doctrine over the scouting skills. The LDS do publish their own scouting handbooks, which they primarily use, as well as use the BSA's and this was discussed in detail in another thread months ago. I have been invited to and attended LDS Scout Camporees, LDS week at summer camps, and I have had high ranking LDS church officials tell me what they view as the overall goal they see the BSA program in preparing their boys.

 

While I respect the LDS church for its emphasis on family and kids, their BSA program is not the same as the average boy scout troop, which the BSA has made an allowance for, and most non LDS boys would have a difficult time fitting into an LDS troop. So rant all you want but I will take my experiences and what I was told by LDS officials over your opinion.

[BartHumphries]

The LDS church does not publish its own scouting handbooks. There is a single 8.5x11 booklet that's about 10 pages long that goes into how to setup a scouting program when you don't already have one. It explains what a scoutmaster is, etc. As has been listed in this thread, that "handbook" also states that non-members can, if the Bishop chooses, "be called" (serve) as adult leaders. As I've said before, there are a number of people in a ward, so a ward generally doesn't recruit outside people since there are usually numbers of people who are already interested in being adult leaders. That being said, multiple people have related in this thread that they know (or are in) an LDS troop that has a non-LDS adult leader.

 

I didn't want someone to get the wrong idea that the LDS church publishes anything even halfway close in size to the regular BSA Scouting handbook -- far from it.

 

The LDS church's "agenda" isn't that different from the Scouting agenda -- to make the boys into morale men who know how to stand on their own two feet, plan ahead, and generally just be good guys. The LDS church does promote that young men go on missions -- that young men volunteer two years of their life and go serve. I've seen other churches promote similar things, that young men should volunteer a year in the Peace Corps or go a mission for that church. Personally, I don't see how such an extended and continuous personal "service project" (whatever organization you're doing it for, Peace Corps or your church or whatever) wouldn't make a young man into a better man.

 

Let me humbly suggest, BadenP, you don't really understand how the LDS scouting program is supposed to operate. If you'd like to know more, the LDS church distribution website has always offered the Scouting handbook free of charge (since it only weighs a couple ounces or so):

http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_10705_10551_21143_-1__195656

 

I encourage you to get it and read it, to see for yourself what the LDS-view of Scouting really is.

[BadenP]

Bart

That site is just an LDS book site, and I strongly suggest that you try going to some of your own church sponsored scouting weeks at Philmont as I have before you spread more misinformation, the hierarchy of your own church explained in specific detail what they wanted their scout leaders to emphasis in their troops, packs, etc. and there definitely IS a difference between LDS and standard boy scout programs. Your church leadership doesn't deny it I don't know why you and Gary do?

[FScouter]

Since were clarifying what is fact and what are misstatements or personal opinion, heres another point to refute:

The CO Agreement between the chartering and organization, signed each year, and the BSA states that they will use the BSA program as an outreach to the youth of its community. Thats not true either.

 

The charter agreement does say that the CO will Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth an families. There is no agreement or requirement that any CO must accept all comers, or do outreach to the community.

 

In my personal opinion, the differences in an LDS administered Scouting program are insignificant.

[BartHumphries]

Look at the html address. store.lds.org/... It's part of the main LDS website and more is offered than just books -- that's not "just an LDS book site". It's the real deal. The Scouting Handbook that I linked to is the only LDS Scouting Handbook (last updated in 1997) and as I said earlier it's free precisely because it's so short -- just over 5 pages long.

 

BadenP, perhaps you'd like to spin off a new thread and talk about what the differences are, as you understand them, between LDS Scout troops and non-LDS Scout troops. It can be easy to misunderstand other religions.(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)