Should we demand more or less?

[acco40]

One of the beauties of Boys Scouts is that every boy should have some responsibility be it SPL, PL APL, Quartermaster, Patrol Scribe, Patrol Cheermaster, etc. What happens if attendance is simply a "happy go lucky" event is that the Scouts don't feel they have real responsibility.

 

I'm not for mandatory attendance but I'm also in favor of boys dropping out if they can't make at least 50% of the meetings, outings, etc.

 

When I was the Scoutmaster, I didn't have an attendance requirement either - and got paid the same as the Scouts. However, I volunteered for that role (or at least accepted it) and felt I should meet my commitment. The Scouts and their parents should also feel the same way.

[JMHawkins]

Being in a band requires a significant time commitment because you need to practice to be proficient enough for anyone to want to listen to you play. This requires a certain dedication to the effort and helping kids develop the ability to dedicate themselves to mastering something is very valuable.

 

What is it that scouting requires kids to master? It's not a specific skill like playing a tuba, or throwing a curveball. It's a whole set of social skills, an outlook on life, and a set of values that make for a good man. You can't sit and study those skills the way you can scales on a tuba. We can't devise a set of drills for the kids to run every day that will develop the character traits Scouting is all about. The skills we're about really have to be developed in a different way, they're not things kids can master through drills and focused repetition. They have to be mastered in the context of kids living out their lives. Fingering the keys on a clarinet is something I do when I'm playing a clarinet - being trustworthy, loyal, etc. is stuff I do all the time (at least I'm supposed to...).

 

So a good scout program doesn't require the focused dedication that a good baseball or music program requires from the kids. Of course that doesn't address the issue Engineer61 raised, which is the higher perceived value dedicated programs have. For that, I dunno, I guess the real question we need parents asking themselves is "would I rather have my son be an accomplished musician or an honorable man?" Of course the two aren't exclusive, but then being in Scouts and Band shouldn't be either. If the band leader (or the baseball coach) demands so much of the kid that they are exclusive, parents who drop scouts aren't asking the right question, or are getting the wrong answer.

 

Assuming the local scout program is delivering on what scouting is all about anyway.

 

 

[rkfrance]

Are we blaming the youth for not giving more of themselves and/or their time or making them choose between school/band/etc and scouts?

 

The same could be asked about parents, volunteers, professionals and especially the National office.

 

If you've been around Scouting awhile, you have a certain expectation for an event, activity, program, etc.... When that event, activity, etc doesn't meet your anticipations, who's to blame?

 

If you have a program that's been promoted to be the "BIGGEST AND BEST THING YOU CAN DO THIS YEAR" type and the weather doesn't cooperate, who's to blame?

 

What if the program doesn't live up to the hype? Will you or your youth want to come to the next event?

 

As a parent, having to get Johnny from this activity to the next and have him say, "IT WAS BORING", who do you blame?

 

 

 

No matter what we do, it won't please everyone (especially in these forums). Sometimes it comes from high expectations and poor delivery. Too many times, there's a lack of quality program.

 

Should we demand more from event organizers or trainers? Should we demand volunteers give more time to the program? Should we demand more parent participation? Should we demand the professional staff work day and night to get everything done? Should we demand National just puts it all in a little box for us to "just add water" to make it work?

 

If we do our best to improve the quality of the program, either by feedback or better yet, direct participation and continue to make it better each time, isn't that good enough?

 

In the end, some will, some won't, SO WHAT!

[BrentAllen]

Stosh,

My son's high school marching band is very much student-lead. The section leaders do most of the teaching, both in marching instruction and muscical. It was that way when I was in high school marching band, as well.

 

Boy Scouting should be all about Patrol Method. As B-P said, if you don't have Patrol Method, you don't have Boy Scouts. It is hard for a boy to be a part of Patrol Method if he isn't there. We don't have an attendance requirement, but we do have the following requirement to be part of our Troop:

 

The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity.

 

That being said, we have several boys out for a few months due to a conflict with football. I have no problem with that - they let me and the SPL know about it. They don't hold a POR during their absence. I do expect the PLs and other leaders to be there for meetings and outings. If a Scout is going to have a major conflict, he knows he shouldn't run for office. The boys also know they are leaving their patrol a man short every time they miss an event. Our goal is to develop patrol spirit to the point that the Scout feels a strong obligation to his patrol mates to be there.

[Beavah]

I think band was just something new for him, a new challenge that he's gotten good at. Scouting for him was the thing for him during middle school. He put 100% into it, Philmont, SeaBase, NTeirs, OA, NYLT, staffed NYLT, Okpik, Eagle. After he mastered it, he looked for a new challenge and band was it.

 

The above comment was from Gern in da parent thread to this one. (Thanks, Gern, for sharing!). I think it's pretty telling - his son moved on when Scouting was no longer a challenge for him, and band (with its higher level of commitment) was the "next" challenge.

 

Personally, I think it takes more time and effort to teach character than it does to teach how to march around a field. So are we shortchanging our mission when we don't follow acco's and BrentAllen's example? They seem like they're trying to match age-appropriate challenges with age-appropriate levels of expectation and commitment, eh? That seems like what Gern's son was looking for, and what Engineer61 is describing as a weakness of Scouting compared with band. We don't offer high enough expectations or challenge to really teach character to older boys.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Beav,

This is my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, but the older scouts should eb the ones teaching character to the younger ones by serving as leaders, by teaching skills, by their example, etc.

 

That expectation of giving back was there in my troop. Yes we had those who Eagled or aged out and left, but for the most part they stayed around until they moved. We had a few young ASMs in college who would come back whenever they could. Heck I remember a good friend who never made Eagle, comeing back and helping out when he could b/c it was instilled.

[GernBlansten]

I get the impression that you might think our program failed my son. I disagree. I think it delivered. From the time he was a cub through 15, for 7 years, he loved it. The activities were age appropriate, offered him challenges and adventure and hanging out with his buddies. But his interests changed, his friendships changed, HS offered a ton of new challenges and opportunities. He is exploring them and scouting isn't part of it.

 

Just because membership rules allow him to be a scout up until 18 doesn't mean he wants to do it till then, or should be expected to. Especially with our unreasonable expectations of commitment.

 

As I watched my son navigate through his scouting, it became apparent to me that boy scouting is a really good middle school program and a lousy HS program.

 

 

 

[Knot Head]

Kids are free to go or not go as they choose on my middle school football team and my scout campouts and meetings. But actions have consequences. I don't cut players from the team or the troop. But if a player misses practice he won't play and if they miss campouts they will advance more slowly. So it's not mandatory unless you want to play or advance.

 

And yes we try to win all our games so I am guilty of being an ego stroking coach trying to prove my manhood.

 

>>>>>> I think it's VERY illegitimate for a sport or activity to claim kids must be there 100% of the time, or have mandatory attendance.

 

This is just a bad way to run a program. The worst offenders are the people running kids sports, who stroke their egos by trying to get a winning record as a coach. Kind of as proof of one's manhood.

 

Kids should be free to go, or not go, as they choose.

[Thomas54]

 

Though crowd Beavah.

 

Unless it was tied to school grades what kid would take such a thing as marching band? None and non do. There are plenty of recreational and many select football, soccer, baseball, basketball, hockey leagues... that are offered outside of school. Ever seen a rec league marching band? NO

 

Why because Marching Band could not survive as a program for youths on it own merits. Without the scholastic support its a lost program. Clearly it has no value above being a participation grade for school events.

 

The argument within the thread seems to have fallen to, Marching band delivers a program attractive to HS students while scouting does not.

 

I am the father of a HS senior, a HS freshmen and the SM for a troop of 25+ boys. Their biggest fear from what I can tell is the fear of growing up. Making life choices for college and degree program. Filling out college applications and visiting colleges. Going away to college for many of the scouts and their families is foreign. Going to and out of state college is unimaginable.

 

I am convinced that the trips scouting builds its program around, the leadership element, the public service and public speaking emphasis, and finally the personal character building will serve the youths long past and more personally than marching band will.

 

Funny at my kid's private school they can take an elective called "leadership" its a course that includes a low ropes and a high cope course followed by an outward bound weekend in the everglades. Sounds like scouting to me.

 

 

 

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

I was really bothered by this statement: "I guess the real question we need parents asking themselves is "would I rather have my son be an accomplished musician or an honorable man?""

 

I think a lot of Scouters overrate Scouting in terms of turning boys into good men, and the rightness of the cause. And along with it, there's a real sense of entitlement - "why shouldn't Scouting demand as much attendance and committment (both from the boy and the parents) as band, or football?", or "why won't the city /public school ignore their own anti-discrimination policies and do fill-in-the-blank for Scouting?". There does seem to be a feeling that "After all this is Scouting, we're so noble we deserve whatever we want."

 

Scouting does provide good role models for young men. Scouting also creates opportunities and controlled situations for them to develop leadership and organizational skills that some people may not get until they're much older.

 

Scouting reinforces the good traits in a boy's upbringing, at an age where parents become less influential in his life. And in some sad cases, it can help make up for a poor upbringing.

 

Any amount of time a boy spends in the program will be beneficial - in whatever proportion works for the boy along with band, sports, girls, cars, hanging with buddies, video games, and school.

 

Or should we get huffy about it & have boys with other interests drop out completely - since they won't devote themselves to Scouting to the degree we think they should?

 

NC(This message has been edited by novice_cubmaster)

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

Thomas54 wrote:

 

"Ever seen a rec league marching band? NO "

 

Ever heard of Drum Corps?

 

www.dci.org

 

 

Regards,

DWS

[Scoutfish]

"Should we demand more or less?"

 

 

We don't DEMAND anything ! We might demand that adult leadership meets a certain set of training or criteria, but that's when we draw the final line!

 

Scouting is supposed to be a fun activity that just also happens to teach the boys some good morals, how to take care of themselves and be responcible for themselves too. Teach them respect for themselves, others, God ,and country.

 

But we need to knock our ego's down a a couple levels...maybe a bunch more.

 

We are not in a position to demand anything. Otrher than for safety reasons that is.

 

Scouting is a program that is supposed to offer an alternative to just ekeing through life. It's a chance to get out and learn skills that shape our boys in a FUN manner. In a way that is exciting,adventurous, fufilling,and makes them want to come back.

 

It is our job to ensure that all that happens.

 

Scouting is not school. People are not required to attend.

 

Scouting is more like producing movies:

 

WE had better get off our butts and make a good movie with a good story line and make sure it's exciting enough to make the boys want to see the sequel.

 

WE are selling our product to them. WE are wanting thier "buisness". It's not the other way around.

 

Just like the free market, you better come up with some great, exciting, eye catching thing or you lose customers.

 

THe only difference between us and movie producers is that we don't make a 7 or 8 figure salary...nor do we hand pick and choose our movie starts up front.

 

So,it's pretty much the boys who are the ones who are in a position to make demands.

 

 

Granted, a scout who holdsa POR should have an expectation of fufilling the duties related to that POR, but beyond that, the only demands in BSA should be the ones we set on ourselves.

[Lisabob]

Around here there are many youth music programs that kids opt into. These are not for a grade, or graduation credit, or anything, except that the kids truly enjoy them. These are the equivalent of rec league sports in many ways.

 

My son changed schools this year and can't participate in marching band in his new school during first semester. So he sought out his old band teacher to see about volunteering with his old band, at his old school, for nothing other than the pure joy of doing it.

 

So, Thomas, there are plenty of non-school musical outlets and many kids (and adults) thoroughly enjoy them. Maybe you or your kids just aren't aware of them.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

the requirements from joining to First Class are nothing to sneeze at, even with what some regard as an Accelerated program, it still is expected to take one year to get to First Class. Then add in the requirments to get from First CLass to Eagle. There is 1 year and 4 months of POR (POSITION OF RESPONSIBILITY) to do. If the Troop (Not BSA mind you) does not require much of the scout for the POR, then that is not the BSA's issue

 

If the question is should we demand more, no, we shouldnt, we should demand that the requirments that are in force are enforced

 

Then there would be no issues

[BrentAllen]

Thomsd54,

My son marches in the high school marching band, but it is not for a grade. He takes band as a class, but his participation in marching band is totally voluntary. There are students in band class that do not march. Jazz band is also voluntary, so yes, those programs do stand on their own.

 

Edited to add, my son does not have band for next semester as a class. H will participate in band, in "zero" period, before school starts. School starts at 8:00 AM, so band practice (for no grade) will be from 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)