Should we demand more or less?

[Beavah]

Yah, in da previous thread if I was reading him right, Engineer61 hinted that band (and before that, sports) were better activities than scouting because they demanded more of the kids. Band requires practice 5 days a week, and as a result the teamwork is more integrated, the level of performance is higher, there's more camaraderie because they're spending more time together, better fitness development, etc.

 

Lisabob, by contrast, suggested scouts should be more a more available activity or at least not be so much of an obligation that it would conflict with the level of commitment demanded by the band and sports programs.

 

Da problem is, if yeh made sports or band the same sort of "as available" activity, yeh would never get beyond beginner level as a group. That eventually frustrates the lads who want to do more and need a group to do it with. It also makes it hard for da parents on the sidelines to keep their enthusiasm up, as they watch their kid's "team" stay at mostly beginner level.

 

Is Scouting like that? We see that in many troops that don't hold on to older boys. They try to make up for it sometimes by givin' out badges, often for somethin' less than real proficiency.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

Beavah, I feel I must respond and point out that I did NOT say I thought scouting should be "as available." In fact, I specifically said it should not become a drop-in sort of program. While you may take what I said however you want, I'd really prefer that you not twist it out of context like that.

 

My point was that people should not try to force an either/or choice (as did the poster to whom I responded in the other thread) where kids can do scouts OR band, or scouts OR sports, but not both. I think that sells short the kids who participate at a reasonable level and enjoy and benefit from different types of activities. But privileging scouting above all else is not a good answer, in my mind. It fails to recognize that kids sometimes need other things, too.

 

 

[Beavah]

OK, my language is corrected.

 

The choice is the same, though, isn't it? And I think that's what the other poster meant. There's more value in a program that puts participation and performance demands on kids, and therefore such a program should be "privileged" as you say. Hence Scouting has less value in his eyes as a parent.

 

In order for Scouting to have the same type of impact on kids, the same value in the eyes of the parent, it would have to have similarly high expectations, eh? And that would require a choice between programs.

 

Just curious... do yeh think a band program would survive in a high school environment if it were run like a Scouting program, with that same sort of lower level of commitment? Or is it the commitment and teamwork and performance improvements that come with that what makes a band desirable?

 

Beavah

 

[Mr. Boyce]

I think it's VERY illegitimate for a sport or activity to claim kids must be there 100% of the time, or have mandatory attendance.

 

This is just a bad way to run a program. The worst offenders are the people running kids sports, who stroke their egos by trying to get a winning record as a coach. Kind of as proof of one's manhood.

 

Kids should be free to go, or not go, as they choose.

[perdidochas]

I think the Boy Scouts would die if we required the rigor that sports and band requires. The good thing is that we are year round. If a scout can't participate due to band in the fall, they can come back to full participation in the winter. If we didn't do that, the band and football students would be gone. Also, scouts is an individual activity that you can do at your own pace. Band is also, but marching band isn't. It's a very regimented activity.

[qwazse]

Some groups demand a large minimum amount of time by their very nature. Quality comes from practice.

 

Scouting demands 1 hour a week minimum (roughly). But, if you only put that in, you can't expect much in terms of advancement. What we count on is that boys will look around and see other boys putting in more time, and eventually on average you get many times the minimum put it.

 

In terms of outright demanding it, to be in a troop -- don't waste your breath. But, once this troop decides what they want to do ...

 

If you have kids that want to camp locally every month, you can get by with 8 boys making a 1 hour a week committment.

 

If they want to tap a high adventure base -- hello! Everyone needs to be proficient. Fundraise forever, welcome to the hike a month club, etc ...

 

Plan their own high adventure? The minimum becomes much more like any team sport. You gotta be sure you trust your fellow scouts before you hop on that bus with them. You'd better have conditioned just like you were in a competitive team activity.

 

If some of your boys are in band or on a sports team, it actually helps. They understand that certain situations demand more committment. It's that boy-led thing again. They get the vision, they'll do the demandin.

[evmori]

I think we should stop comparing Scouting to sports and band. They are not the same thing. Pretty much any boy can join Scouting and stick it out for years. The same can't be said of sports and band. So the comparisons are moot.

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't see Boy Scouts demanding attendance, but I do see us requiring participation and no, they are not the same thing.

 

For a Scout to Advance he has to do X number of things, acquire X number of skills and perform adaquately in Positions of Responsibility. For the scout to accumulate skills and to demonstrate those skills he will have to participate in Patrol or Troop outings. To advance beyond First Class he has to adequately fulfill a Position of Responsibility. He may not have to attend a certain percentage of meetings or outings (as to have a required percentage is against National Policy) but he certainly has to be sure his responsibilty to the Troop is adequately discharged and this is the participation that determines if he is doing his job.

 

I think if we had more participatoin and less attendance, things might be better off

[Stosh]

Given the fact that we might all agree that the kids and maybe their parents are making choices in the various programs, it is up to each of the programs to insure they are competitive or the choice will be easy for the kids because no one is even going to consider a lesser value program over something more exciting and different.

 

Trying to make oneself competitive does not mean that one takes the best of the competition and make it better. Without a track record on your side you'll never do as well as they can.

 

With that being said, if we offer a variant program, something that kids can't get anywhere else, then there is a real choice. If all we do is duplicate other youth programs then the decision making may be closer but about half the time we're going to lose.

 

What is it about scouting that a person cannot get anywhere else? What is it in scouting that they have a track record that others wish to duplicate and try and become competitive with us on? If one cannot answer these kinds of questions, then toss up your hands and quit because butting your head against the traditional brick wall is your only choice. One of our local Outdoors programs at the university put on a one day seminar for kids in the neighborhood. The kids got to shoot guns, and bows, and they built fires and ..... It looked like a Scoutfest. But! It made the news as something that the kids were not getting an opportunity to do anywhere else. At the end of the news broadcast they announced that because the day was such a success they were going to do it again next year. Wow, what a kick in the head to their local scouting program!

 

Let's take retention for example. Cub Scout (generally the majority of those entering the program) are all excited about this new adventure called Boy Scouts. They hit the advancement trail and knock out Scout, Tfoot, 2nd and 1st Class the first year. Then things bog down. The newness wears off and we begin the struggle of the sophomore slumps. For those that survive, tokens of adventure are doled out in limited numbers. The expectation is to pour all the older boys' energies into "training up the newbies." Toss in a Jambo, or a Philmont, or Sea Base here and there, but remember one has to go back to the same old summer camp these boys have been to for the fourth or fifth time.

 

The reason we lose our older boys is because we have no end-game. Sure Eagle is something of an end-game, but only about 2% of the boys ever make it. There's something seriously flawed in the program. How would our schools do if all the juniors and seniors in high school were expected to interact with the freshmen and get them educated? No, the schools offer a challenge for the older students and one doesn't have to take Biology twice and then teach it to others before they graduate.

 

All but one of my boys currently is FC or above. Everything we do should be something new and different. Every outing should be a new challenge/adventure, not just the same old camporee they have already attended twice a year for the past 4 years. The challenge should be: No summer camp this year, you need to plan a trip to the BWCA instead. No camporee this spring because you need to plan a trip white water canoeing someplace. The older boys are expected to teach one week a month basic education for the yonger boys, but the other three are expected to be planning various outings designed only for them. They cannot do what they did last year either. It has to be something altogether new. Biking weekend? Kayak instead of canoe? Hike to a different place where there are no campgrounds? Go fishing and catch fish that don't need to be counted towards a MB?

 

Once that mindset is established, the older boys won't be in a hurry to leave. They won't be bored out of their gords and the programming for them will be specific to their interests and needs.

 

So everyone says Whoa! That means there has to be two programs for every troop! Yep. The adults focus on training up the newbies with a wee bit of help from those older boys that may wish to help out and the older boys focus on their own program where the SM literally kicks them out of the nest and watches them either fall to the ground or soar. The older boys totally resent staying in the newbie nest and never given a chance to try out their wings which they have been diligently taught to use.

 

What's the value of learning a musical instrument if you never play in a concert? What's the value of learning to play a sport if you never play in a game? What's the sense of learning all this leadership and scout craft if you never get a chance to use it out in the woods?

 

We all take our shots at blaming girls, sports and cars for drawing our boys away because it justifies the poor program we are running. I have been able to compete on the girls, sports and cars level because if I have a program that offers far more excitement than that, they stick around. I can never improve my program if the only thing wrong with it is something else (i.e. girls, sports and cars) then I'm going to continue in my myopia and let the boys leave and I'll sit back thinking it's someone else's fault for my problem. In the words of the infamous Pogo, "We have met the enemy and it is us."

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

In marching bands, the seniors are leading and teaching the freshmen, just like our older scouts lead and teach younger scouts.

 

That said, I do agree that we need to provide more adventure at ALL levels of scouting, from Tiger Cubs through Venture Scouts.

[Eagle92]

I'm playing devil's advocate here.

 

Why can Sea Scouts demand attendance for advancement, but not Boy Scouts?

 

Ordinary

2. Active Membership

a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and activities for six months.

Note: Check with your ships yeoman.

b. Do one of the following. Recruit a new member for your ship and follow through until the new member is registered and formally admitted with an admissions ceremony, or assist in planning and carrying out a ship recruiting activity, such as an open house or joint activity with a youth group or organization (another Sea Scout ship will not count).

 

 

Able

2. Active Membership

a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for one year.

Note: Check with your ships yeoman.

b. Prepare and present a program on Sea Scouts for a Boy Scout troop, Venturing crew, Venturing Officers Association meeting, school class, or other youth group. Your presentation should last a minimum of 15 minutes and describe the activities of your ship and Sea Scouts.

 

Quartermaster

2. Active Membership

a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for 18 months.

Note: Check with your ships yeoman.

b. Present a talk or program at least 15 minutes long on Sea Scouts to a service club, religious organization, PTA, or other adult organization.

 

 

[Stosh]

Having had 10 years experience in marching band, I can assure you that most older members do not teach the younger ones, the band director does about 99.9% of the teaching unless someone just can't figure it out in practice.

 

I have been everything from newbie to first chair to squad leader in marching band and I never had to teach anyone anything. In high school most of the kids came in and were taught by the band director and all we did was make sure the newbie got to where they belonged. I don't think pushing and shoving counts as EDGE teaching, but it worked. When I went on to college the same process applied but for the most part these students all had 4 years of experience when they came into the program so the pushing and shoving was minimal.

 

Marching band was far more militaristic than what the vast majority of parents would tolerate in a scouting program so it's basically apples and oranges.

 

It was interesting when I got into reenacting where the men were taught military drill of the 1860's. When I started out one of the old veterans said to me on the first day, don't worry, you'll know when you're doing it right, nobody's going to give you a shove. He was right.

 

As a matter of fact if one were to treat scouts like high schoo/college marching band you wouldn't have a troop. My senior year of college we were taking the band to the Orange Bowl to play the half time. The band had 250 uniforms and 400 people "tried out for the band" that year. The band director prided himself in never having to tell someone they couldn't be in the band. But on the first day of practice, as a squad leader I was told how many tenor saxes were needed in the band. I had 3 extras and was expected to weed out those that didn't want to be there. What I ended up with was the cream of the crop, but the right number. Suppose I figured I needed 20 boys in my troop and when the Webelos came in, I "weeded" out those that weren't dead set on Eagle from day one. I wouldn't last 10 seconds in scouting.

 

But, on the other hand, we ended up with the most dedicated musicians one could ever have and an excellent band. Expectations if placed high enough will produce very high quality, but it does have it's human price figured in.

 

Stosh

[emb021]

"Why can Sea Scouts demand attendance for advancement, but not Boy Scouts?"

 

Because that's how they've always done it since the time of Cmd Keane setting up the requirements.

 

A better question is why don't we do this for Boy Scouts.

 

 

I also like how it was the Sea Scouts who developed a quality unit program in the form of "Flagships" at council, regional, and national level, which was later extended to all senior unit. Only MUCH later did national do something similiar for packs and troops (in the 70s I believe), but didn't bother with multiple levels. Now the upcoming 2011 performance recognition program has 3 levels.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Remind me again the total percentage of Sea Scouts to BSA membership?

[Rockford8070]

Here's a thought.

 

If we changed it up to an hour a night for 4 or five nights a week for den meetings for Cubs, how would you get parent volunteers?