BSA training: Some thoughts from an outsider

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Sounds like an Educational Model to me

 

You are clearly wrong. What part of "Leading" EDGE do you not understand?

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

I do not think you want to use the NYLT Curricula to make a point that BSA wants to kill the Patrol Method

 

"Leadership Skills" have already killed what B-P called the the "Patrol System," and what Hillcourt called the "Patrol Method."

 

I do not usually comment on NYLT because I have never staffed it. Those who do, tell me that it is about "Leadership," not the Patrol Method. Sounds to me like NYLT is like the Patrol Method presentation of SM Specific Training, only without the false advertising.

 

Penta writes:

 

Kudu's beating the drum about the evils of the EDGE method and such, and the replies thereto, as one conversation, and the separate conversation about the achievability of becoming trained in necessary skills by an untrained adult. Seems to me it'd be less confusing were the former to be spun off into another thread, but eh.

 

Yeah, when you start a thread with a quote from one side of a heated argument, perhaps you should set some ground rules. For instance: "I am only interested in points of view that support NJCubScouter's assertions. If you believe that Kudu's observations have any merit then please spin that off into another thread." See how simple that is, Penta?

 

Penta writes:

 

2. BSA could indeed teach everything mentioned. But it seems insane to do it all in one course, to try to do leadership *and* outdoor skills.

 

As in "Leadership Skills" and outdoor skills are mutually exclusive, you mean?

 

It is "insane" only when you present "Leadership" as corporate office skills, and Scoutcraft skills (Scoutcraft means outdoor skills) as something that you check off a list for advancement toward Eagle (ItOLS). There is no requirement that an Eagle Scout need ever have walked into the woods with a pack on his back, so of course it is "insane" to think of leadership (lower case) as the position-specific Scoutcraft training a Patrol Leader needs to guide his Patrol into the woods with packs on their backs.

 

Penta writes:

 

3. A final point: I'm not really sure it helps people to bang the drum and preach about "Parlor Scouting" or worse. To be totally honest, Kudu and others...If I were the ordinary person reading these threads, I'd be insulted, both by the implications of there being Holy Writ or heresy on a subject like this,

 

"Parlour Scouting" (from a memo to James West) are Baden-Powell's words on the subject of what we now call "Webelos III" camping (Baden-Powell was the guy who invented Scouting, West was the the CSE who at long last finally started the Patrol Method in the United States). If, as you say, you have not been camping since you were a Boy Scout, you have no dog in the fight over Patrol Method, and if you do not like what the inventor of Scouting had to say about Scouting then you should consider becoming a Wood Badge Staffer! You are a natural

 

Baden-Powell invented Wood Badge. Its purpose was to teach leadership that is based on Patrol Scoutcraft (small unit backwoods camping) to volunteers whom, as you write, "(we must presume, for the purposes of any training, come to us totally unskilled) to what is basically a professional position."

 

Penta writes:

 

and by the fact that none of that deals with the reality.

 

Reality?

 

Baden-Powell's and William Hillcourt's Scoutcraft Wood Badge successfully served tens of millions of Scouts worldwide, Penta. That is the "reality."

 

When Scouting was about Scoutcraft rather than "Leadership Skills," it was wildly popular with boys. That is the "reality."

 

If you speak at a school assembly and present Scouting as the kind of "Scoutcraft methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916," more than 70% of 21st century sixth-graders will sign a list asking to join Boy Scouts. That is the "reality."

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

It is only when office workers excluded Baden-Powell's Scoutcraft from Baden-Powell's Wood Badge (as in "Leadership Skills" and outdoor skills are mutually exclusive) that membership went into an immediate and sharp decline, losing two million Boy Scouts in the process. That is the "reality."

 

So if you want this thread to be about your version of "reality," you should set that as a guideline: "Please limit your discussion to training built on failure, because 'that deals with the reality'."

 

Penta writes:

 

Work with what exists, not what you might wish to have, IMHO.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your topic. So you do not advocate changing training in any way, but rather you wonder if bad training should be done over and over, more like what ARC would be if the Red Cross ignored its Charter in the same way that the BSA ignores ours, and replaced first aid skills with Leadership Skills?

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[Penta]

I'm not allowed to have my views shifted by the thread?

[Kudu]

Huh?

[Eagle69]

Back in the 80's and early 90's when I was doing Scout Leader Basic Training it wasn't about Leadership it was all about Scouting and how the program was supposed to operate. The course was usually a 1 night, 1 day classroom setting and finished up with a Saturday/Sunday Overnighter. It was here that we got a chance to show them some basic things like knots, compass, tent pitching and some non traditional cooking skills. Lot's of times when we would be back in the campsite helping them set up we would discover that the patrol might not have anybody that really knew anything about camping.

 

When I did Woodbadge it was Leadership Training, but mine was done as a walking(backpacking) course back in 78. i don't recall any teaching of outdoor skills other than a basic intro on how to use the backpack stoves.

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey Kudu, you are right and I was wrong

 

I didn't understand what you were saying, I was too locked in on EDGE as the Educational Model, not the Leading EDGE so I apologize for my misundertanding, I was wrong

 

I was looking up information on Leading EDGE and apparently the words mean the same, Explain, Demonstrate Guide and Enable. I truly wish the second E was not Enable, an "Enabler" does seem to have picked up a less than savory image these days, but it is what it is.

 

These are examples of EDGE Leadership and how to teach it

 

EXPLAINING STYLE OF LEADERSHIP

"Jim, you and Brad will need to go to the dining hall at exactly 4 P.M. to pick up our food for dinner. Are you good with that?"

 

Ask: What style was used here? (Explain) How can you tell? (Very exact

directions with lots of detail.) Would this be a good style to use with a Tenderfoot Scout? (Yes.) With a Star Scout? (No, though someone might suggest it's a good style if the Scout were new to the troop and its culture.)

 

DEMONSTRATING STYLE OF LEADERSHIP

"Let's hold up on our hike for a minute. I'd recommend we all take a moment to drink some water. No one wants to get dehydrated. (Take a drink yourself.) I noticed a while back that some of you were pulling the leaves off the branches as you pushed the branch out of your way on the path. We're a Leave No Trace kind of troop. That means no one should be able to tell we'd been by here. I've been taught to push the branches down, gently, so the branch doesn't break, but also so

it doesn't bounce back into the face of the Scout behind me."

 

Ask: What style was used here? (Demonstrate) How can you tell? (Described what he does and role models the behavior.) Would this be a good style to use with a Tenderfoot Scout? (Yes.) With a Star Scout? (Yes, especially if the Star Scout is new to hiking.)

 

GUIDING STYLE OF LEADERSHIP

"Jack, the patrol set up camp as a group on our last trip. I noticed you did a nice job. I think you can set up your tent by yourself this time. Pick out a good site and pitch your tent. If you need some help, I'll be over here with the new guys."

 

Ask: What style was used here? (Guide) How can you tell? (Indicates confidence in Jack's growing skill, gives him a few reminders, and offers his assistance if called upon.) Would this be a good style to use with a Tenderfoot Scout? (Yes, assuming they are doing well in this skill area.) With a Star Scout? (Yes, if the Star Scout is still learning this skill, but not if he is highly skilled in this area.)

 

ENABLING STYLE OF LEADERSHIP

"Mike, you've really got your first-aid skills down. I'd like to have you go through the first-aid class with Ted and Juan and give them some pointers on tying band-ages and splints."

 

Ask: What style was used here? (Enable) How can you tell? (Expressed

confidence in Mike's skill, gave him an opportunity to share his skills and deepen them through teaching others.) Would this be a good style to use with a Tenderfoot Scout? (Yes, if Mike was really good. But chances are that Mike is still learning and not fully skilled.) With a Star Scout? (Yes.)

 

WOW, EDGE as Leadership, I think it works well, well except for that Enable part, like I said

 

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Hey Kudu, you are right and I was wrong

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that before

[packsaddle]

I know I'm sure impressed!

 

About those links to the last pages rather than the beginning, that is something the web gurus would have to address.