Irrate Parents and Youth Protection

[ScoutMythBuster]

About a year ago we had a Scout (Tenderfoot) who had his Totin Chit removed because of constant knife violations. The Scout and the parent was counseled a few times, but the father insisted that his son had the "right" to use his knife wherever and whenever he wanted to. For the safety of all he was told the rules again. Within a week, the Scout decided to pull his knife out and wave it at the other Scouts in his Patrol while the Scoutmaster's back was turned. The Patrol Leader calmly told him to put it away and had the APL get the Scoutmaster's attention. First thing the Scoutmaster and the Assistant SM did was quietly request the knife and returned it to the father and said that there was a no knife policy at Patrol Meetings and we would discuss it later.

 

The parent flew down the hall and berated the Patrol Leader and blamed him for the entire incident. Embarrassed, he said nothing but the other Boy Scouts brought the incident out in the open. The PL was assured he did the right thing. And after a Committee and Leader Meeting, the youth and his father was removed.

 

As I said, it's been a year and I was just wondering if we as leaders could have prevented the incident? Or was the father's reinforcement of the Scout's incorrect behaviour dooming any positive outcome?

[shortridge]

First, this type of incident has nothing to do with Youth Protection.

 

Second, it doesn't sound like there was much more you could have done short of installing metal detectors at the doors. The safety rules in Scouting are fairly clear. If the parent doesn't respect them, and is actively encouraging his son to ignore them, then there's no room for him at the table.

 

That said - a no-knife policy at patrol meetings? Unless you're meeting at a school or other facility that bans knives, I don't see why this policy is in place. If a Scout has the Totin' Chip, and he's not doing anything wrong, why prohibit him from carrying an essential Scouting tool?

[Eagle92]

Agree with Short, a knife is a tool, plain and simple. to ban it outright without a reason is kinda silly.

[ScoutMythBuster]

Sorry, yes we do meet in a school. That is why we have a knife ban at our meeting place. So when we do Whittling with our Cubbies we use an another facility.

 

As for the Youth Protection Part, the offending parent cornered the Scout he screamed at and basically, for a few moments managed to get himself alone with the Scouts.

 

The next day was even more fun! The parent went to the Scout Executive to argue his son's case... didn't get to far.(This message has been edited by ScoutMythBuster)

[ScoutNut]

Why was the parent there?

 

Screaming at a youth, and acting like an a$$ is not against YP. You said that there were multiple Scouts present at this incident, so the parent was never completely alone with this one Scout. No YP policies were broken.

 

If the parent was not a registered Troop leader, and had no knowledge of BSA Youth Protection policies, how can he be held accountable for breaking them?

 

I don't understand what you are after here.

 

The incident happened a year ago. The family is no longer in the Troop. The SE for your council was informed of, and dismissed the entire thing - a YEAR ago.

 

Why bring it all up a year later when the entire thing is dead and long gone?

[shortridge]

... and basically, for a few moments managed to get himself alone with the Scouts.

 

SMB, I think you may be fundamentally misunderstanding Youth Protection. The key prohibition is against one-on-one contact. You can have one adult in a room with two Scouts - you just can't have one adult in a room with one Scout.

 

ScoutNut has some good questions.

[moosetracker]

Since the incident happened over a year back, you may want to discuss now if there was a better course the adult leaders could take in a certain situation.. But best if in that case you open the tread to be a more general question then a discussion of a particular incident.

 

For example

.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------.

Subject: "How would you deal with over-indulgent parents"

 

Body: You know the type? Those that their kids can do no wrong. Those that at a troop meeting will jump up and argue with the adult leaders to let their son do whatever they want, even if it is disrupting the meeting, or endangering other scouts? Blah.. Blah.. blah..

 

Are there any ways that we as Adult Leaders get control of the situation?

.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you posed your question in this fashion, you would get responses to it without people scratching their heads wondering where you are coming from..

 

So in answer to the question in general.

You can try to get the parent to not constantly shadow the child, and see if you can work with them better when mom/dad isnt present.

You can discuss with the parent that it isnt all about Junior, but you have a responsibility to make sure the program is fair, fun and safe for all scouts.

But, bottom line if the parent is upsetting the entire program for the entire unit to try to allow his son to get whatever his heart desires, and there is no reasoning with him. Then first the unit as a whole is being lead and manipulated by an adult. The Adult leaders must regain control of the program, and if this means eliminating the parent & child for the good of the rest of the unit then that should be the action. You can start out by giving the parent warning that if he doesnt stop trying to manipulate the unit, then he is not welcome at the unit meetings (if that means the loss of his son, so be it.). I think you really cant bar a parent from attending, because I know even for an OA initiation, you cant bar a parent from attending. But, if you can remove a child from your program for their behavior.. then you should be able to do so for a parent, even if that means the child is also barred due to the parents behavior. Your unit should have the right to be able to maintain control and safety, and should be allowed to remove anyone who is threatening it.

[evmori]

Got himself alone with the Scouts? No YP violation as long as it wasn't dad and one Scout.

 

What could you have done? Probably nothing. Dad doesn't seem to understand the potential problem. While an outright ban of knives at a patrol meeting probably isn't the best thing, I don't see the harm. It's good to hear the SE back you up.

[ScoutMythBuster]

The YP policy states:

 

■Two-deep leadership.

Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

■No one-on-one contact.

One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths.

 

And next time I'll make it more general, good point. The reason I brought it up a year later is with a new scout year beginning I thought it was a good time to do a leadership evaluation. You know, make a bad thing a learning experience.

[UCEagle72]

Youth Protection also covers "emotional abuse." And cornering and screaming at a PL is easily in that realm.

 

Now, in additional to all that has been said, this parent did violate YP and should have been reported to the Scout Executive by the unit leaders and probably child protective services.

 

 

[Mike F]

SMB,

I think they did fine in the original situation you described.

Scout was corrected and insisted on flagrant breaking of rules. This wasn't just a case of having a knife in his pocket - you described him pulling it out and waving it at other scouts. This was either flaunting the rules, a threat, or stupidity. All can get you in trouble.

 

When the father cornered and berated the PL, he would have earned a removal from the group I serve.

[Beavah]

Sorry, yellin' at a kid is bad behavior, but it's not emotional abuse. And if yeh call CPS they're just going to laugh at yeh. They have no jurisdiction over that kind of stuff. If yeh think it was a genuine threat of physical harm (aka assault) then yeh call the cops.

 

There's no YP violation here. Being the only adult in a room with a few scouts is not a violation of 2-deep (think about an average MB counseling session). Two deep applies to outings for safety. No one-on-one applies everywhere for protection against allegations of (and actual) impropriety.

 

What yeh have here is just poor parenting.

 

And faced with that, when it becomes disruptive to da unit, the parent won't change, and other kids are being adversely affected, yeh really don't have any choice but to show the family to the door. It's either that or yeh lose your "good" families while failing to teach character.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad]

We had a situation like this and we did call it a youth protection issue because it scared the bejebers (is that how you spell it?) out of the scouts. Call the cops? Common Beav, and waste their time for what looks to them like a parent loosing a temper? Maybe because I had to deal with similar situations, I think this is a good topic. And by the way, this is the number question I got from new leaders at my Scoutmaster Specific Class.

 

First thing you do is remove the adult immediately.

Have a committee meeting with the adult as soon as possible to review the behavior and discuss the adults future contact with the scouts. I suggest a very small limited committee to minimize rumors and to keep the discussion quick. I would also suggest a representative of the either the district or council to witness the meeting. In our case we had a very good District Commissioner and Unit Commissioner both trusted by the Council.

 

The problem with these kinds of things is nobody wants to be a bad guy and most people dont like confrontation, especially volunteers. In fact, the adult might even be a neighbor. I find women are better at this than men, maybe its a protection instinct. We had a female CC who had no trouble putting adult behavior in its true context. But, experience had taught me that if these things are left unsettled, the adult will likely repeat the behavior. You must protect your scouts.

 

And lets be clear, we are not talking about an adult who snapped at a scout after a long hard rainy day on a campout, we are talking about repeated dangerous behavior. I can think of four situations in past years in both the Troop and the Pack (two women and two men) where the offending adults were restricted from all scouting activities for the safety of the scouts. One adult was reported to the district and council for child abuse. Another was sent to rehab by the family for six months.

 

Everyone likes to point out reporting these incidents to the Chief Executive, I guess because they assume Council will take over and fix the problem. They will not. Instead you likely receive What is your committee doing about this matter?. They will even send someone to monitor the meeting if needed. But Unless the council sees that this is a really bad situation that they must get control, they will expect your unit to take care of the matter. Myabe because we learn to be proactive, but we were never given advice by the council, not even in the child abuse case. So reporting to the Chief Executive should not be at the top of your units list of actions taken to protect the scouts. Your unit must first take proactive actions to protect the scouts and just consider reporting to council as more of a getting the situation on record. Except in extreme cases of course.

 

I think these kinds of things are unusual, that I been involved with four is more a matter of big units and a lot of time in scouting. I would like to suggest every committee have a plan in case something like this comes up, but I think that is unrealistic because as I said, the reality is most adults in a volunteer organization will tend to turn a blind eye until the situation gets dangerous. The best advice I like to give adults is Protect the Scouts. I know it kind of sounds silly to say that, but its almost like we have to give adult leaders permission to confront aggressive behavior. Or maybe its more like giving the cowardly lion courage, I dont know. But some adults out there have behavior problems, likely you wont ever see any in your unit, but if you see do something that you dont like, Protect the Scouts.

 

Barry

 

[Twocubdad]

Maybe it's not a Youth Protection issue, but I would consider it a youth protection issue. Big YP or little yp, it is our number one responsibility to protect the youth in our charge.

 

Exactly how would depend on what 'Buster means by "berating the Patrol Leader." Did the dad calmly and rationally explain to the PL why he disagreed with what had happned or was the guy in the PL's face, scream, spitting, flailing about and trying to intimidate the PL?

 

Big difference, although both reactions would have been inappropriate for a parent.

 

At the end of the day, I'd say removing the family from the troop was the proper action. If a Scout refuses to follow troop/BSA policies and the parent fails to back up the unit leaders -- and especially if they actively working against the unit -- they need to go.

[Eagle92]

ED,

I must respectfully disagree with not informing the SE as soon as possible. YP guidelines do state that we need to contact the SE. And as a DE who had to make the phone call to the SE one time,it is not fun at all.

 

Also many states do have reporting laws, as well as protection for the person reporting it in case it is a false alarm.

 

Sorry to be a pain about this, but I've dealt with YP issues as a volunteer and as a pro. I don't want any youth to have to go through some of the stuff I've had to deal with.