Real Rules vs Traditions

[qwazse]

Definitely read the book, because ...

 

If you ask someone about a rule, they will make one for you.

 

Also, Den Chiefs should be selected by the SPL *and* scoutmaster (note who's listed first) if they are coming from a troop.

 

And, yes my Arrow of Light knot is upside down. Patch Dyslexia. I'll fix it one of these days.

[Eagledad]

>>I have recently taken a District Position as a Training Chair after causing much trouble over the real rules vs traditions.

[Oak Tree]

"after causing much trouble over the real rules vs traditions."

 

My experience is that it's been easy to correct things (at least within my own unit) without causing much trouble. I just ask the person making the statement to show me the rule - if they show me, fine - if they can't, then I don't have to follow it. I try to avoid "heated debates" and statements like "unveiled the deception" and "it is wrong." I'm not looking to call people out, nor do I assume that people are intentionally deceiving others or doing things with ill-intent. Our troop generally does things the way the book recommends.

 

That said, there can be a place for traditions and expectations. A Scoutmaster can indeed say that he won't choose a Scout below First Class as a den chief. That could be a requirement in his troop. Councils can add restrictions on some things too.

[ScoutMythBuster]

I agree, training is the key. Sometimes the Training Committee is the problem, some Trainers have been doing the job so long that the tradition is now taught as the rule and the problem than snow balls in a horrible beast.

[ScoutMythBuster]

Some National Policies will say follow local laws, ei shotgun shooting. But, according to my DE, even Councils cannot modify any "Rule" or "Requirement" with out National's Approval. As with the knife Policies, there is no real National Guideline. A guide to safe Scouting states to avoid large Fixed Blade Knives. And the rules change from council to council. This is confusing and National SHOULD have a clear, concise policy. All policies should be the same across the country unless a local law restricts it.

[Eagle92]

one thing to remember is that council are local, and reflect local norms. What may be common in one are of the nations, say having those under 11 using 22s and hunting, may not be acceptable in another part of the country.

 

EDITED anotehr example would be a council's decision to ban camoflage clothing form their properties as it reflect that community's norms.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Oak Tree]

Councils cannot modify advancement requirements without National's approval. There are a few places where they have specifically been delegated that power (e.g., youth with disabilities, further specification of how they will handle the Eagle requirements).

 

Councils cannot officially relax/modify existing national rules. They can add rules, though. As can troops.

 

In practice, many councils and units do modify existing national rules. One widely ignored rule in the G2SS is "All driving, except short trips, should be done in daylight." I'm guessing councils routinely approve tour permits for trips that start on Friday after dark, especially in the winter.

 

In general I agree with your sentiment - it's not a great plan to force more restrictive rules on people when those rules are not even official. It can be fine to make recommendations.

 

It depends on lots of things, including who you are, how important the rule is, etc as to whether you want to fight a particular battle. People routinely complain about Eagle boards having lots of ridiculous rules. Unless you get into a position where you can influence the board, though, complaining is typically a waste of breath. Our Eagle boards recently revamped their policies to be much more relaxed and in line with the official requirements - it's truly a breath of fresh air.

[Beavah]

Nah, ScoutMythBuster, you're not quite understanding things right. The BSA is not like the national government of scouting, eh? And even our national government properly yields to local government on many things.

 

We in da BSA provide program materials for a kids' program. Stuff for COs to use to help 'em do their thing with kids. Yah, sure, we have some interest in making sure that our awards stay slightly uniform and that our recognized symbols aren't abused. We'd like to suggest best practices to keep kids safe. But beyond that, there's all kinds of room for local adaptation. Heck, da BSA is re-writing and adapting things all the time, eh? It's not like we have a perfect grip on what works best. Many of the things you recognize as part of scouting now got started as local adaptations, from Venture Patrols to the OA.

 

So I'd say stop focusing on rules and focus on kids. Yeh get much better results and will have much happier youth and volunteers. What's right for a winter campout for boys in Northern Wisconsin is going to be different from what's right for a winter campout for boys from south Florida who have never seen snow. What's an appropriate knife for a rural lad who has grown up with proper knife use is different than what's right for an urban youth where knives were always treated as concealed weapons and taboo. Those rules should be local.

 

As to training being the key, I just have to laugh. In my experience, most myths and urban legends are passed on by trainers and at roundtables, eh? Usually by well-meaning folks who just aren't as confident or experienced, and who want to sound authoritative.

 

Best way is to focus on kids. What makes sense for the kids and the resources you have? Sometimes it's a rank requirement for Den Chief or SPL, sometimes not. Sometimes an election is right, sometimes not. Sometimes fixed terms are right, sometimes not, and sometimes they're just different and both ways have merit. Nobody's goin' to come and put yeh in the stockade regardless, so yeh might as well do your best for the kids. And if what you're doing isn't working, whether it's by-the-book or a local adaptation, then do something different!

 

Beavah

[Abel Magwitch]

rules, shmules. In my council, the professionals trump any national rules, regulations, policies and procedures and they have the support of the executive board in which most members don't really know or understand Scouting.

 

Currently, (and for most of the past year), my district committee only has 6 volunteer members and a district executive. The district committee consistis of a MIA district chair, a popcorn chair, an activities chair, an advancement chair, a camping chair, and a training chair. There is no district commissioner as the last one resigned last February.

 

The district chair who was appointed by the DE, (yes, appointed. the district nominating committee never had a say in the matter as he was handpicked by the DE and already approved by the council president), is always a no show at district meetings. The district chair cannot be reached as there is no contact number for him.

 

As I started this post - rules, smules. Proper policies and procedures are no longer followed in my council unless they are convenient for the professionals who are now in charge of this volunteer movement in my council.

 

Abel Magwitch, COR.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Lisabob]

About uniforms - I happened to be standing next to a mother of a new tiger cub at the scout shop the other day. The sales clerk had loaded her up with all the requisite patches (not really that many) and the mom, with a slightly overwhelmed look, says "how do I know where these all go?" To which the clerk had a great answer: on the tags of all the new shirts is a picture of the shirt, complete with patch placement!

 

Smart idea, national supply!

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Lisa, that does sound like a good idea... but that would have to be a pretty big tag, to clearly show where each kind of patch goes.

 

[Lisabob]

NJ, it is a big tag. Not the actual shirt tag, but a large paper/cardboard tag attached with one of those little plastic thread thingies.

[acco40]

Here's how these traditions or myths begin and then later get twisted into "deception" or "Uniform Nazi" or whatever comments.

 

Rule: A den chief is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. He is selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. he is approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the den leader. he is registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew.

 

 

Scoutmaster judgment: The mother of a Tenderfoot, who just crossed over in March, comes to the Scoutmaster in August and states, "I"m the den leader for Johnny's brother's den and would like for him to be the den chief. The Scoutmaster realizes that the request should come from the Cubmaster, not a den leader. Also, he knows the perils of having older brothers "chief" for their younger brother's den especially if their parent is the den leader. He also feels that Johnny is not ready and has in the wings an older Scout looking for a POR who has already had den chief training. Not wanting to be rude he tells the mother, let's wait until Johnny reaches first class before we give him this type of assignment. The mother, hears "you must be first class to be a den chief" and explains this "rule" to anyone who will listen.

 

Tradition or rule?: Fast forward to the next year and another crop of new scouts joins the troop. Another mother with a similar situation wants her son to be a den chief and expresses her desire to - not the Scoutmaster - but in casual conversation with the other mother who promptly tells her, "no, your son can't be a den chief until he earns first class." She reads up on this, finds out this is not a requirement and confronts the Scoutmaster about his "deception."

[ScoutMythBuster]

acco40, THANK YOU. YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO SEE THE DANGER IN THIS KIND AF IMPROVISING. YOUR EXAMPLE IS PERFECT, AND POINTS OUT HOW THE PARENTS COULD LOOSE FAITH IN THE INTEGRITY OF THE SCOUTMASTER. HE SHOULD HAVE EXPLAINED THE REAL RULE AND LET THE CUBMASTER ASK OR NOT ASK.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

ScoutMythBuster I think you're reading this wrong. The SM did nothing in error. The Den Leader mother failed to listen to what she was being told in Acco's example. The SM said lets wait until Johnny reaches First Class, what he did not say was that FC is a requirement. It seems that with this example had the CM made the same request of the SM as the DL mother that his answer would have been the same, a gentle no. Your suggestion that the SM should quote the "rule" however is a good one but that requires good listening on the part of the DL for it to not be construed as personal.