Who cares? Do you?

[moosetracker]

I would like that grad school project.. Most I heard of are dry and boring. I grew up in Buffalo, Utica NY.. And it was Pop.. I think I changed in College in Il to Soda, but when in MA & NH it was definately Soda.

 

Back to LDS.. In some ways I can see why LDS would segregate.. If you felt this hostility from those not like you, you would tend to stay where the water is friendly (so to speak.), So if they do segregate, is it truely them or us that caused it? I think we may have been in a negative cycle for years, and who knows where it started.

 

I commend anyone in the LDS group that are trying to wade those icy waters to break the cycle, and anyone from the non-LDS chuch willing to notice their effort and welcome them.

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

jet526, "Despite Gary_Miller's protests that it is the same program, spend some time in District Eagle Boards of Review and it becomes very obvious that they are not the same.

 

Spend a week at camp with a number of LDS units and it is clear they are different programs."

 

Funny, last I looked the program materials were all the same. The training were all the same. The requirements were all the same. The Oath and Law were all same. Even the last District Eagle Board of Review's were all conducted in the same manner, the Young Man had to do the same paper work, Ect.

 

So where are the programs for LDS units and Non-LDS units not the same?

 

jet526, "Are there good LDS units and fine LDS scouts? Certainly. But there are too many that are not and their behavior effects the reputation of all scouts."

 

Exactly what was the behavior that had an effect on all scouts?

 

jet526, "Yet that ward will have 4 votes on District and Council elections (Pack, Troop, Team and Crew) with less scouts than you will find in many non-LDS units with a single vote."

 

This statement is not true. While wards may have 4 different registered units. They only have one COR who sits on the district and Council Committees, and last I looked only COR were able to vote.

[Frank17]

Here in Western PA, we do not really encounter LDS Troops very much. Most of the local troops are more segregated by socio-economic grounds (read different school districts) than they are by religion or sponsoring organization.

 

But, having lived out west, I can often see the divisions that form, IMHO, due to familiarity more than anything else. It is easier to hang out with and spend time in organizations with people familiar to you, and LDS are good at building a community that way. As a non-LDS person, I always felt welcomed but at the same time was not part of the full inner circle, since I did not attend the activities associated with the LDS church. I was OK with that, but not everyone is. Like scoutfish, I really did not care that they were different so long as we got along when it counted.

[NJCubScouter]

Wow, that's some map. (Not to mention the county-by-county statistical breakdown, that's amazing.) I guess I can see why I've called it "soda" all my life. I never realized the regional divisions were that pronounced. What I don't get is why people in the South call any "soda" a "Coke", if it is not a cola. Or don't you-all have lemon-lime soda, root beer, Dr. Pepper etc. down there?

 

And what is "Other"?

 

Notice I am studiously ignoring the topic of the thread (LDS), which as I said in the other forum, I am staying away from for now. Live and let live, that's my motto...

[gcnphkr]

Gary_Miller: "So where are the programs for LDS units and Non-LDS units not the same?"

 

Implementation is not always the same. Far too often those requirements are viewed as guidelines or even ideas to shoot for but that are not actually expected.

 

Gary_Miller: "Exactly what was the behavior that had an effect on all scouts?"

 

We recently shared a large dispersed camping area with a ward's father and son camp. When they left on Saturday, no effort was made to put out fires or pick up their trash. We have had to leave people in our campsites at summer camp to prevent scouts from coming into the camp and stealing from us. This was after being warned by the camp staff. This occurred in a Utah camp were we were the only non-LDS unit in camp. I have seen program directors laid into by LDS leaders for not signing off on an unearned Merit Badge. LDS leader shouting at board of review demanding that the scout be given an unearned eagle.

 

Gary_Miller: "While wards may have 4 different registered units. They only have one COR who sits on the district and Council Committees, and last I looked only COR were able to vote."

 

You are correct, the CO may only have one CR. I apologize.(This message has been edited by jet526)

[gcnphkr]

Gary_Miller,

 

You seem to believe there are no issues in LDS programs. That very well could be in your area. I'll be the first to admit that there are issues with non-LDS programs.

 

The organizational dynamics are such that it is very difficult to maintain a high functioning unit. A failing non-LDS unit vanishes fairly quickly, a failing LDS unit can go unnoticed and continue for years until the ward gets a bishop that cares enough to notice and take action.

[acco40]

NJCubScouter - what, you've never been to Atlanta and heard somebody order a "rootbeer coke"?

 

I moved the the highest concentration of "pop" callers to "soda" callers and back again. I can also add that the "learning curve" is about 20 years. It took me about 20 years of living in St. Louis to start calling pop soda (soda was something with ice cream in it) and then after moving back to Michigan, it's taken me about 20 years to go back to pop.

 

The correct term is soda pop but nobody uses that term. Yes, I'm curious to about "other" respondents.

 

As for LDS, they are the elephant in the room - they have the numbers, dollars and rightly so, the influence. Some don't like that of course. I just wonder about those special undergarments? Does the insignia guide address those?

[Gary_Miller]

jet526, "Implementation is not always the same."

 

Your right different leaders do different things. Happens in Non-LDS units as well.

 

But you knew that!!!!!!!

 

jet526, "Far too often those requirements are viewed as guidelines or even ideas to shoot for but that are not actually expected."

 

Your right some leaders veiw the requirements as guidelines.

 

Happens in Non-LDS units as well.

 

But you knew that!!!!!!!

 

jet526,"We recently shared a large dispersed camping area with a ward's father and son camp. When they left on Saturday, no effort was made to put out fires or pick up their trash."

 

So just because one group was bad does not make everyone else bad.

 

But you already knew that!!!!

 

jet526, "We have had to leave people in our campsites at summer camp to prevent scouts from coming into the camp and stealing from us. This was after being warned by the camp staff. This occurred in a Utah camp were we were the only non-LDS unit in camp."

 

This happens in every camp. There is alway one or two people out there that makes life difficult for all. And they come from all groups. Just so you know LDS members are not perfect if we were we would not need to attend church.

 

But of course you already knew that also!!!!!!!!!!

 

jet526, "I have seen program directors laid into by LDS leaders for not signing off on an unearned Merit Badge."

 

Me to. I also seen it happen with non-LDS troop leaders as well.

 

But you already knew that!!!!!!!!

 

jet526, "LDS leader shouting at board of review demanding that the scout be given an unearned eagle."

 

Yes I've saw this as well. I've also saw it with non-LDS leaders as well.

 

But you already knew that as well!!!!!!!!

[NJCubScouter]

NJCubScouter - what, you've never been to Atlanta and heard somebody order a "rootbeer coke"?

 

Never been, never heard. In fact it looks like I have been in "Coke country" exactly once in my life... well, for about a week and a half. (At Philmont, but since most of the people around me at any given time were also from New Jersey, and I was 16 years old, I probably didn't notice.) My son has been to Atlanta a couple of times, but he is usually oblivious to things like that so I am not even going to bother asking.

 

I can also add that the "learning curve" is about 20 years.

 

Sounds about right, based on people I know from Michigan, Ohio, etc. who are living in New Jersey. What I don't get is, why the huge enclave of soda-speakers around St. Louis, in the middle of "pop" country and on the edge of the Coke belt? And the smaller enclave in eastern Wisconsin. Also, is there a colony of Texans in northwest California? But anyway...

 

As for LDS, they are the elephant in the room - they have the numbers, dollars and rightly so, the influence.

 

Now, let's get our animal analogies straight. If they have the influence, they are the 800-pound gorilla. They would be the elephant in the room only if they were the crucially important issue that nobody wants to talk about. One problem the LDS Church does not have, judging by this forum, is that nobody wants to talk about them.

[Gary_Miller]

jet526, "You seem to believe there are no issues in LDS programs. That very well could be in your area."

 

No sir, I don't believe that at all. If you ask anyone who know me you will find out I'm the loudest voice when it comes to the scouting programs not being ran according to guidelines. I know about all the issues and some that you will never know.

 

I believe that its the people in the program not the program where the problem lies.

 

I have spent many hours over the last 26 years as an scout leader studying the program and how it works with the church youth program. What I found was the programs work well together when implemented according to the guidelines from the LDS church and the BSoA.

 

 

jet526, "I'll be the first to admit that there are issues with non-LDS programs."

 

Then why do you single out LDS units?

 

jet526, "The organizational dynamics are such that it is very difficult to maintain a high functioning unit."

 

That can be a problem but its not a program problem its a people problem.

 

jet526, "A failing non-LDS unit vanishes fairly quickly, a failing LDS unit can go unnoticed and continue for years until the ward gets a bishop that cares enough to notice and take action."

 

Yep, once again, in both incidents, there is the people problem, not the program.

[Scoutfish]

Gary, no offense, but you sound like a broken record.

 

You keep saying that there is only one program. Great! Nobody ever said otyerwise. But how people follow or use the program is a different story.

 

Those are trhe tweaks.

 

In another forum, you yourself said that within LDS, some leaders are "voluntold" to lead. It is expected and required of them.

 

In other Co( non-LDS) I have read that you have to be a member of the CO to be a leader.

 

In the end,I think you missed the point of my post. So LDS does not stick around til Sunday when at camp. Okay, I'm cool with that.

 

If that's the way you want to do it, it's fine with me.

I do not care.

 

It doesn't affect my pack at all . We will stay until Sunday afternoon or so.

 

Your time frame, your leadership policies, your "tweaks" don't affect my unit, and mine don't affect youirs.

 

 

So whyt make a fuss, right?

And that was the whole point of my post!

[gcnphkr]

Gary_Miller: "Happens in Non-LDS units as well."

 

It sure does. But I contend that it is not as common nor as severe. I know LDS leaders that admit to moments when they are just embarrassed by what is far more common than you seem willing to admit. Do you really chalk up the LDS reputation to blind bigotry and that there is no factual basis to it at all?

[Gary_Miller]

Scoutfish, "But how people follow or use the program is a different story."

 

Now your getting it. Its the people and how they inappropriately use the program, not the program.

 

Scoutfish, "In another forum, you yourself said that within LDS, some leaders are "voluntold" to lead. It is expected and required of them."

 

This I did not say. Go back and reread what I said. I was commenting on someone else's post.

 

Scoutfish, "In the end,I think you missed the point of my post."

 

Nope I understood exactlly what you were saying.

 

In short you was saying it does not matter what other units do as long as it don't effect you unit. So why should anyone care what the LDS does, or what others are saying.

 

I stated that I cared about what was being said because lots of time its based on inaccurate and misleading information.

 

All I'm trying to do is help people know what the truth really is.

[Gary_Miller]

jet526, "But I contend that it is not as common nor as severe."

 

I don't think is as common or severe in the LDS units as you make it out to be.

 

jet526, "I know LDS leaders that admit to moments when they are just embarrassed by what is far more common than you seem willing to admit."

 

I'm more willing to admit it than you think. I'm one of those leaders who have those embarrassing moments. And when one studies the why, one quickly comes to the knowledge that the problem lays with the people involved not following the program.

 

jet526, "Do you really chalk up the LDS reputation to blind bigotry"

 

In some cases yes.

 

jet526, "and that there is no factual basis to it at all?"

 

Oh there are facts about the people not running a proper program. I see it all the time, and those people are easy to spot at events and summer camps.

[Basementdweller]

I think the LDS units almost purposefully segregate and alienate themselves.

 

Refusing a hand offered for a greeting.

 

Changing the Schedule roundtable night for the benefit of 4 leaders and impacting 40.

 

Arrogant attitudes and body language.

 

Confrontational interactions.

 

LDS can do what ever they want, It does not change how I provide my program or how I recruit.

 

What happens to the LDS contingent on their own time back at the CO is none of my business or concern. They have different beliefs and slightly different values, GET OVER IT.