Rifle & Shotgun shooting for Boy Scouts?

[TNScoutTroop]

Ok, guys. We've got someone (ex-military) looking into NRA certification, but this quote has got us puzzled:

"All rifle shooting activities must be supervised by a currently NRA -certified Rifle Instructor and when on the range, must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Range Safety Officer."

 

Does this mean that if you and your boys are shooting someplace OTHER than a range, only an NRA Instructor is needed?

 

We have access to some rather unique private property, within city limits, where it's legal and safe to shoot (so long as we control point of aim reasonably) but it's not an official or commercial range.

 

 

[TNScoutTroop]

Follow-up, sorry.

 

Just checking out the NRA site -- it looks like if you get NRA Rifle instructor ($240 - $300) you can do a $20 home test to get NRA Range Safety Officer. Is that combo sufficient to keep the BSA paper pushers happy?

[Beavah]

Is that combo sufficient to keep the BSA paper pushers happy?

 

Yah.

 

Now, to follow up on your paper-pusher comment, is it enough for you to consider the activity really safe?

 

I think you'd want to look at da age and experience of the kids, the number of shooters and setup, da number of shooters per instructor. I think you'd really want to pay attention to da difference in instructing kids and instructing adults, eh? Da NRA is geared a bit toward the latter. I think yeh would also want to take a very close look at your impromptu shooting area. Kids are funny, silliness happens, yeh can't always control point of aim, so it sure helps to have a setup that places some physical barriers.

 

Da BSA requirements are the first step of trying to advocate for safe practices, eh? A good unit goes further, beyond the paperwork, not less than da paperwork.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[SR540Beaver]

Our troop has a number of adults trained in climbing and rappelling and we own our own gear. Shooting is a whole different animal when treying to provide your own program outside of summer camp. An option that might be considered is a local gun club. We have some registered adults in our troop who are members of the club. A year or so ago we had a shotgun campout. On Friday night, the club handled the safety instruction. On Saturday, they handled the range safety. The provided the shotguns and ammo. Shotguns brought in from the outside were subject to a check by the club before being allowed. They allowed the troop to camp there as it is a large piece of land on the outskirts of town. I believe the troop did a service project while there. The boys voted to do the outing again during the coming year. Something to think about.

[TNScoutTroop]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is Tennessee, and several of us are country boys. We grew up shooting. Our sons shoot. Our fathers shoot. We've all been teaching shooting, without the NRA's help. None of us ever hit anyone or anything by accident. As far as we know, no one we taught ever did, either. That's not to say that there aren't any idiot red-necks in Tennessee -- there are. But while we may be red-necks, we're not the idiot ones.

 

If it was just a matter of being safe, we could handle that without the NRA.

 

We realize that, in other parts of the country, guns are dangerous and mysterious devices normally only handled by criminals and police. But, that's not the case here. And while it's no longer true that a gun is a tool like an axe or a saw, we're not that far removed from that either. It's a whole lot easier to teach a 11 year old to handle a .22 safely, than a full sized axe. But the BSA allows adults with nothing more than an OLS attendance card to do the latter.(This message has been edited by tnscouttroop)

[Beavah]

Yah, TN, I hear yeh.

 

Da thing of it is, teaching your son to shoot is a lot different than teaching a good sized group of boys who are not related to you. Teaching groups is different than teaching individuals. Harder to control and anticipate. Teaching kids not related to yeh is different than teaching your own son. Yeh don't know 'em as well, can't anticipate them as easily, they don't know, trust, and obey you as well, don't understand what you're saying as easily. Other boys will do things your son never would, and your son can surprise you when he's around other boys

 

Seen lots of folks who did just fine teaching their kid make a complete disaster of teaching a group of kids. There's a reason why we have National Camp School.

 

Beavah

[Eagle1973]

The reason I follow the G2SS is because if an accident happens, I'm covered by the BSA insurance, or at least I hope that I am. Same when I'm working with the 4H youth, I follow their rules.

 

If any of youseguys are in or near the Tidewater Council, Virginia, I can point you in the right direction of setting up a rifle & shotgun MB or orientation shoot weekend. Camping is about 75 yards from the range!(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

[Beavah]

The reason I follow the G2SS is because if an accident happens, I'm covered by the BSA insurance, or at least I hope that I am.

 

Aieeeeeeee! Yah, I think this urban legend will never die. It's like one of those internet chain letters from Nigerian dictators wanting to make you rich.

 

Eagle, insurance is governed by something called an insurance contract, not by internal organizational documents like G2SS. G2SS is there to give yeh advice and guidance because no one wants to see a kid or adult hurt. Insurance is there for when you screw up by not following G2SS (or by following G2SS foolishly) and someone does get hurt.

 

Please search "insurance" on the forums for dozens of threads with hundreds of detailed explanations.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled riflery thread.

 

B

[TNScoutTroop]

Good points, Beavuh, about the difference between sons and other boys. But, so folks don't worry, we should explain a bit more.

 

Regardless of NRA standards, we'll have some safety standards of our own. The most important is a 1:1 ratio between trained (adult or older Scout) and untrained shooters, with a trained shooter assigned to watch and help each untrained shooter.

 

The second is limiting who is at the range, so we don't have Scouts standing around idle. Bored boys and guns don't mix well. Besides the private range, we'll often be camping near a Forest Service range with 4 rifle stations. We've used that before, personally and with groups of people. The layout of that range makes it fairly easy to handle a group. And, we'll visit the range with only one patrol at a time.

 

But, shooting is something almost all boys seem interested in, and we have the gear and the range access right off the bat. Other activities, such as climbing, caving, or backpacking, require expensive gear we won't have for at least a year or two.

[Stosh]

So, how do these range/no range issues deal with boys that are shooting blanks? Do reenactor groups need a certified range master at an event?

 

Stosh

[Eagle1973]

Beav - are you saying that if I follow the G2SS wrt shooting and a scout with a sue happy parent gets hurt and brings me to court, the BSA will not back me up? This topic should very much be part of this discussion.

[Beavah]

 

Beav - are you saying that if I follow the G2SS wrt shooting and a scout with a sue happy parent gets hurt and brings me to court, the BSA will not back me up?

 

Where'd yeh get that notion, Eagle1973?

 

Da BSA has an excellent reputation for always standing by it's volunteers.

 

Insurance coverage applies if someone sues you on da basis of negligence of some sort for a damage to persons or property arising from your participation as a volunteer in a scouting event. Period.

[HICO_Eagle]

"Teaching kids not related to yeh is different than teaching your own son. Yeh don't know 'em as well, can't anticipate them as easily, they don't know, trust, and obey you as well, don't understand what you're saying as easily. Other boys will do things your son never would, and your son can surprise you when he's around other boys."

 

Sorry but I disagree here. This is a function of the instructor, not the father/son relationship. I've seen plenty of fathers who seem to do better teaching other boys than their sons.

 

I was a registered rifle merit badge counselor long before I was NRA-certified and the NRA certification honestly didn't help me with my teaching or knowledge. I took the course precisely because Council requires it now, just as I follow the G2SS to avoid problems with Council (not the insurance). Personally, I'm not a big fan of the G2SS but they don't ask me to like it, just follow it.

[Eagle1973]

Beavah - I was just stating my question in a different manner. I used the insurance term incorrectly, I just want to be covered ;-)...

 

Back to the real discussion - Teaching Scouts: The NRA course is about worthless for teaching youth. In Virginia, we have a rather robust 4H Shooting Education Program. The VA 4H course (which use to be accepted by the NRA) is the best for learning how to teach youth the proper handling and use of rifle, pistol, shotgun, blackpowder, you name it. For one, it teaches how to properly reposition a shooter's stance, by commuticating with them and then with / without touching them, and how to do it so you can't be accused of improper touching, etc. The NRA doesn't teach how to teach that.

 

Unfortunately, not all State 4H programs are equal, so the NRA took the easy way out by not allowing any 4H certs to carry over. And, the G2SS removed their clause about being cert'd by NRA or a State program. Bummer, I had converted by rifle cert in time, but not my shotgun cert, so I had to pay $75 for that priviledge.(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

[JoeBob]

1- I have no knowledge / experience / training regarding firearms courses.

 

So this is a question / wish / request based on behaviors observed in younger shooters at competitions and in the field.

 

New shooters have no muzzle awareness. They are not conscious of that invisible laser beam that comes out of the end every gun at all times that should never sweep over a human.

 

I don't know if this is because of video games, toy guns, hollywood, or lack of exposure. But I'm getting swept more often and observing others in the line of fire; usually by the younger shooters.

 

Suggested drill:

Movement with a weapon.

 

Three areas to move between.

1- Bench or sitting area.

To simulate trucks or camp from where firearms will be transitioned from inert to hot.

2- A firing line of some type with a target at which to aim.

To simulate firing at game.

3- A circle or central object to gather around.

To simulate the conversation and planning that goes on in any shooting situation that does not happen at a range.

 

Arm the scouts with sticks with the muzzle end painted red. Have them move as a group from one area to another without sweeping a human. If someone points their stick at a human, they're out.

 

Start sitting, simulate loading. Move to fake firing line, aim at target. Move to circle, plan next move. Randomly move between the three areas, like you would in an actual hunting scenario.

 

This activity could occupy all the scouts not on the firing line one instructor.