What justifies removal from a troop?

[Beavah]

So I have to ask...short of a reenactment of Columbine or VA Tech, exactly what does warrant removal from a troop?

 

Yah, Engineer61's query merits its own thread I reckon.

 

What do folks think?

 

Beavah

 

[WestCoastScouter]

Lets see... just off the top of my head...

 

Serious assault on another scouter or scouter; drug use during scout activity. Repeated safety rule violations that endanger other scouts. Repeated acts of dishonesty such as lying, stealing, falsifying paperwork or requirements.

[Beavah]

Practically speakin', I think this is just different for different units. I know units and adults who felt takin' the Lord's name in vain is grounds for removal, and I know units that don't think anything rises to that level short of what would put the lad in prison (and then they'd still visit). Depends a bit on the mission of the CO and the sort of kids the unit serves, too. Heck, we have some juvenile offender specialty Venturing units.

 

I think da real issue is honesty. Yeh remove a kid when you honestly recognize that your current adult leadership, youth, and parent community don't have da ability to meet his/her special needs, or when the youth themselves have honestly made a decision that implies separation.

 

So that's goin' to vary. Some units with a lot of good kids, understanding parents, and very capable adult leaders can take on a few kids with very special needs or problems. That is good, honest labor... da work of the Just. Some units have adults who are barely makin' it handling the slings and arrows of ordinary lads; they don't have the spare resources to take on a special case, and when one comes up they'd best cut bait... otherwise that special case will bring da whole group down.

 

As a group, I think scouters err on the side of overestimating their ability and not removing a kid that really should be removed. Takes some real strong character to step up on these things sometimes. Yeh see a lot of youth (& adult) behaviors that really tear units apart when a youth has been kept even though the unit can't handle him. But sometimes, a unit that has a lot of strength can handle a problem with great compassion. I saw somethin' a few years back on da web somewhere... a report from a SM who had a few kids caught using marijuana on a trip, and how the troop had kept the kids and truly changed their lives. But that's rare, eh?

 

So how's that for a long-winded "it depends?"

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

[Engineer61]

Morning Beavah,

 

"It depends"...hmm...pondering that...

 

Ok...of all the possible answers you could have given..."it depends" is probably the most unsettling....

 

Here we have the BSA...literally thousands of pages of regulations, requirements for badges, endless adult training and protection, etc. etc. etc. ...

 

...but no clear cut policy on what do to with Scouts that engage in drugs, tobacco, alcohol, violence, abuse, whatever?

 

I am beyond baffled, stymied and perplexed all at once.

[ADCmohegan]

I would add that anything that results in the levying of criminal charges that occurs during a scouting activity is grounds for removal in my book.

 

The only time I had to removed a youth from my former troop was due to this reason. I didn't wait until the trial, which took almost 2 years to complete, before I asked the troop committee and the CO to consent to his removal from the troop. It was however, kind of a symbolic act, as the Council Exec had banned this youth from all scouting activities in our council, pending the outcome of the criminal case. The outcome of this case resulted in time in a youth facility and probation for the scout in question.

 

[Spiney Norman]

Hmm. This is timely. Our troop is in the process of deciding whether or not to expel a scout from our troop. This scout failed a BOR back in Feb due to behavior issues and was put on notice for it. Subsequently, he was sent home from camp for a violation of camp policy.

A meeting was held between the contact leaders and we will be recommending that the committee expel the scout. It certainly is not an easy thing to do but something Beaveh wrote strikes home and really hits the nail on the head here:

 

"Yeh remove a kid when you honestly recognize that your current adult leadership, youth, and parent community don't have da ability to meet his/her special needs, or when the youth themselves have honestly made a decision that implies separation."

 

I realize our mission as scout leaders is to help mold young men and help them on the path, but when one person's actions begin driving the program it's time to separate the unit from that influence. As I said it is not easy and it will leave a scar on the unit for some time, but we need to think of the unit as whole before the individual in these cases. It is going to take me some time to get over this.

 

As for there being black and white regulations for this I do believe there are several resources we as leaders should use, common sense, the scout oath and law and the G2SS. If you can't figure out what to do using these resources I think maybe you should reevaluate your role as a leader.

 

[CalicoPenn]

Short of a re-enactment of Columbine or VA-Tech? Not much. Unprovoked physical assault, or any assault with a weapon. Sexual assault. Bullying. Severe Hazing (I'm not kicking someone out of the Troop for sending a new Scout out for left-handed rope, even though it's technically a form of hazing - but if it's hazing that can lead to physical injury? Yep - gone). That's about it. Everything else can be dealt with in other ways - and may be (and is likely to be) better in the long run for the Scout to remain involved with adults engaged in his life.

[Beavah]

Here we have the BSA...literally thousands of pages of regulations, requirements for badges, endless adult training and protection, etc. etc. etc. ...but no clear cut policy on what do to with Scouts that engage in drugs, tobacco, alcohol, violence, abuse, whatever?

 

Yup. Advancement is just a national program material. Da instructions around advancement are part of that program feature. Just rules for a game. Training and YP stuff is da BSA's responsibility under the charter agreement. By contrast, serving youth and membership decisions are the responsibility of the CO, and we've got a lot of different COs.

 

Some units, like I said, work with juvenile offenders. Every one of their kids would likely be expelled from another troop. Some units have a strong religious mission, and will expel families if they convert to a different faith. Some units have adult leaders who are bona-fide experts in youth drug treatment or psychological care. They can handle "problem" kids that other units can't. Other units are young and inexperienced, and probably should expel a boy who is consistently mouthy, just because they need to establish some norms and a comfort zone to build from. No way to write a uniform "policy," and no desire to do so.

 

That having been said, I think we could do a bit better job helpin' leaders with youth behavior stuff. The materials for special needs kids are getting better, eh? A lot of adults just aren't experienced at working with groups of kids with different issues, and some training help and guidance is somethin' that's needed. Like I said, I think most inexperienced adults tend to hold on to kids a little longer than they should, because they overestimate their own ability to handle it. And because they have big hearts.

 

I reckon most units draw a pretty hard line on da stuff like ADCmohegan and WestCoast mention. Criminal conduct will get yeh tossed from almost every unit. You'll see some difference on the borders with minor misdemeanors, perhaps based on who da victim is; petty theft from or a fight with a tentmate may be handled as an internal discipline matter where petty theft from a store during a trip will be more likely to get a kid bounced. Minor vandalism done as a poorly-thought-out joke at camp might get yeh a full day of service work with the ranger, where minor vandalism to anyone else would get yeh tossed.

 

Most units will draw a pretty hard line on older-to-younger kid physical stuff or teasing, but be much more tolerant of younger-to-older kid stuff. An 11-year-old takin' a swing at a HS linebacker isn't likely to get more than a reprimand from the youth leader (or da natural consequence of being picked up and bodily carried to the SM ), where da linebacker takin' a swing at the 11-year-old would almost certainly be gone.

 

That's my loose experience, anyway. Curious what other folks find in their troop or area.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Beavah reminded me that the Eckerd Foundation, an organization that deals with juvenile delinquents and has a "hoods in da woods" program did partner with some councils to try and use elements of Scouting to help the kids. Also New Orleans use to have a program called "Sheriffs' Camp" where several parish sheriffs took at risk youth camping in an attempt to get them on the right path. So yes I do know of folks who were convicted juveniles in the BSA. Soemtimes Scouting helped, other times it didn't.

 

 

[acco40]

Sometimes a misbehaving Scout is an asset to help the other Scouts deal with "real world" actions.

 

The "test" and it is a fine line, is at what level does the offending Scout so monopolize the troops resources - Scouters time, Scouts patience, etc. so that the benefit of the program to that Scout is minimal considering the detriment his behavior is on the remainder of the unit. Therefore, it is impossible to state a certain action is a litmus test for removal. Just my two cents.

[John-in-KC]

I can tell when Beavah is passionate about a subject; he drops an increasing amount of the"friendly furry critter" writing style

 

I see two different issues here: There are cases where unit adults do not have the skills and abilities to serve a particular special need. Those cases seem to result in a quiet mature conversation between CC, SM, and parents

 

The other cases are where a Scout steps across a bright line, and sadly, that particular bright line is the last one the Troop is going to let the boy cross. He has used up his qouta of patience and goodwill, and the Scouters are no longer willing to care about him. I think the circumstances described by CalicoPenn are pretty typical.

 

No one ever said the trail was going to be easy