Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[shortridge]

NJCubScouter,

 

Hmm - not sure why the link to the cached version of the BSA's training syllabus for interfaith worship services has gone bad, but here's how to find it. Go to google.com and search for "scouting.org interfaith worship." The cache at the second link is what you need.

 

Not sure why National took the syllabus down to begin with.

[qwazse]

Evry: "So, why should I feel pressure to be a part of this nonsense? Why should my son be subjected to this? Isn't this proselytization to the protestant way of worshiping that I totally detest?"

 

1. I think we all buy in to attendance being voluntary. And "nonsense" is a pretty harsh judgment. The folks who put these things together really do mean well, and most of them think hard in the preparation.

2. Your son is subjected to a plethora of religious influences. Have you written letters of complaint to the producers of every book, movie, TV show, and video game that foists a religious perspective on your son?

3. I know plenty of protestant families with apprehensions about such a service. It runs the risk of teaching a boy he can "get by" with some watered down, campfire theology. (I think that was Bevah's and John-In-KC's point.) So please don't call this "protestant proselytizing" -- it demeans the grand history of both words.

 

But, please consider this: Telling the boys "Y'all go off and sit on your respective rocks contemplatin' for 15 minutes and keep quiet about it" is proselytization to a "you don't need a church/mosque/synagogue/temple" kind of religion.

 

Moreover, by not providing ANY interfaith service, we teach "keep your god at home" and "disrespect any folks who may want to assemble for a religious purpose". Essentially, we fail to model reverence.

[evry]

Perhaps "nonsense" is a strong word. Any kind of religious service is by its very nature is not going to be voluntary. When a leader directs a Scout (the Chaplain's aide) to perform a service and read a sermon, it is incumbent that all the Scouts and leaders attend that service. There is peer pressure and there is no question that a Scout will succumb to this and will want to fit in, and therefore, he will not back off and say he will not attend the service. This is in essence another form of proselytization through pressure and is forbidden in my sense of freedom. It should not get to this point. A person's belief is very private and each person shows reverence to God in his own way. Why impose one's way of worshipping or one's way of being reverent to all others?

 

I fast to cleanse my body before I take communion. I don't go around saying "let's fast to show reverence to God".

 

A Muslim prays five times a day at specific times. Suppose that the majority of Scouts in a troop were Muslim. Would you accept during an outing for the troop to stop and a leader saying: "It's time to stop and pray to God (Allah)" and not once, but 5 times in a day? All the while, the Muslim Scouts are praying towards Mecca in their standard form of praying, while the minority Christian Scouts look on in bewilderment as to what to do?

 

Please be open and try to understand that what you may consider innocent because it is commonplace to what you grew up with, may be intrusive and bothersome to others.

 

 

[perdidochas]

A scout is Reverent.

 

If my son (for some odd reason) had ended up in a Muslim troop (i.e. one sponsored by a mosque), I would expect that they stopped activities 5 times a day for Muslim prayer. If a Muslim scout was in my boy's troop (which is sponsored by my own church, a Catholic one), I would make accomodations so that he could pray 5 times a day. It is a requirement (i.e. part of their duty to God) for Muslims to pray 5 times a day in a specified fashion. To not allow them to do that is infringing on their duty to God.

 

That said, I agree with Horizon's approach. Scouting is not an activity that is neutral to religion. It is pro-religion (or whatever you want to call it, as I know there are groups of evangelicals that claim they have no "religion.")

[BadenP]

evry

 

Yes scouts own is supposed to be completely nondenominational which many scouters do not seem to understand in this forum. It is not a Judeo Christian Muslim Jewish hodgepodge of ideas or theology. In the true sense it is supposed to be a way to hear some positive uplfting stories, not from any religious text, and to then quietly reflect on your own individual image of the divine. Scouts Own is NOT supposed to be a worship service or a replacement for any worship service, which many here also don't seem to get. What Scouts Own allows is for a group of scouts from a wide variety of different faiths to all show and feel a sense of reverence for what they hold to be the divine, without being subjected to preaching or indoctrinal messages of ANY individual religious tradition.

 

After the 9/11 bombing this entire country came together in a way unpresidented way, that day everyone of us were Americans first and only. I was in NYC when it happened and watched, and experienced firsthand as complete strangers came together hugged, cried, and prayed for hours together. That experience was more powerful and more spiritual than any religious service I have ever been to in my entire life. Sometimes what we view as sacred can be found in the most unlikely situations and places.

[qwazse]

"Any kind of religious service is by its very nature is not going to be voluntary. When a leader directs a Scout (the Chaplain's aide) to perform a service and read a sermon, it is incumbent that all the Scouts and leaders attend that service."

 

That's not how it worked in any unit I was a part of. First, our troops and crews are youth led, so we *ask* the Chaplain's aide (who volunteered for that POR in the first place) if he could organise the boys in a moment of reflection. (The boy picks a passage or devotional of his choosing. The troop Chaplain gives him options including Scouts Own if the boy asks.) If one of the boys (or young women if it's a venturing activity) asks to be excused, we allow that.

 

At summer camp, if our SPL would rather not muster the whole troop to attend a campwide service, we don't. If some of the boys want to go, we arrange for leaders to volunteer to escort them. If some boys would rather not attend when the troop is going, we can find a couple of adults who don't mind keeping an eye on them.

 

In all circumstances, it's made clear to our youth that devotions are strictly voluntary. Occasionally we have an adult who takes issue with that -- they hear from me pretty quickly.

 

You know what would really be involuntary? Forcing all youth to abstain from ANY service of any kind by using the lame excuse that it's bound to offend somebody or their parents.

[drmbear]

Why do we say grace before a meal? It's just stopping long enough to be grateful, give thanks. If not to God, then to the farmer, for the weather, the rain, the sun, good fortune to have enough money to pay for it, etc. Isn't the Scout's Own about the same thing - taking long enough to stop and recognize our fortune, our thankfulness for the opportunity to be out in the woods, good weather, bad weather, a warm fire, keeping mosquitos at bay, surviving the weekend, etc. For me, the Scout's Own service was everything in my spiritual journey. My family didn't go to church, though I went with some of the neighbor kids fairly often. I got into Scouting just before my 12th birthday, and for me that moment of the Scout's Own, focusing on the things that everyone has in common rather than splitting over differences(which I've found is the foundation of too many religions), became a foundation of my personal faith journey. Isn't Respect a core principal of Scouting? I learned to respect and appreciate that not everyone needs to believe the same way or in the same things, but we can come together in common purpose to make it through a weekend campout, to accomplish a difficult service project, and to have fun together. That's what Scouting is about for me.

[Narraticong]

Sounds like your idea of a "Scouts Own" is much like a generic "Thanksgiving Day". Taking an opportunity to reflect on all those wonderful things and the people who have an impact on our lives. It is a chance to remind ourselves of how we need to treat each other and our world. Such a get together is fine and useful. But is not an example of "A Scout is Reverent".

 

But then leave out any reference to any Creator. By thanking God (whose version?) we either disrespect others beliefs, stray from our own, or dilute meaningful worship to a lowest common denominator.

[Jay K]

I've conducted many Chapel Services. I don't go Generic. I tell the participants right up front what I'm going to do, and grant them all permission to go off into the woods (in sight, or with a buddy) and commune in silence with whatever. Then, I proceed. I usually have a few worship songs, and then talk about BP's observations on religion, from Footsteps of the Founder. BP was a Preacher's Kid.(This message has been edited by Jay K)

[drmbear]

Jesus' teachings are not generic - really universal regardless of how you believe. Same with the ten commandments. The foundation behind all modern religions are universal - there are things that all of us can consider absolutely true. On a whole other level, there are things humans all over the planet, no matter their religion, recognize and celebrate in just the same ways they have for tens of thousands of years. Hey, there's nothing wrong with recognizing the changing colors and the leaves falling, first frost and snowfall, the darkness of winter and the return of the sun, the new growth of spring, the bounty of summer. All amazing gifts. A whole lot of this stuff I figured out for myself over the years, but the foundation was the Scout's Own services 30 years ago, and universal values and beliefs. I just came out of this month's roundtable, and on the Cub Scout side next month's character connection is respect. I think the absolute most important thing a Scout can learn with regards to religion is to respect each others' beliefs - that definitely connects with how a Scout is reverent. And duty to God.

[KC9DDI]

I think the absolute most important thing a Scout can learn with regards to religion is to respect each others' beliefs

 

If we stipulate that there is in fact some higher power, I would think that the absolute most important thing a Scout can learn is about that higher power, and to strengthen his or her relationship with said power.

 

Not that respect is unimportant, but "absolute most important?"

 

that definitely connects with how a Scout is reverent.

 

Can you explain this connection in a bit more detail?

[drmbear]

Your concept and how you relate to that "higher power" is not necessarily the same as how everyone else relates to that higher power.

 

reverent/ˈrev(ə)rənt/

Adjective:

Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect: "a reverent silence".

Synonyms:

respectful - deferential

 

From "A Scout's Duty To God And Country" at USSSP:

 

We are concerned that we do not place a single Scout in the position of doubting the values of his own faith or feeling singled out and isolated because of his own faith. We should never create a climate were a Scout feels compelled to choose between Scouting and his religious beliefs.

 

Frequently, it is best if the prayers acknowledge a common maker, such as the Maker of All Things, God, the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts, or the Great Spirit, because each Scout can relate the words to his own faith. A grace, prayer or song that singles out for adoration Jesus Christ, the Prophet Elias, the Prophet Mohammed, the teacher Sidhartha (Lord Buddha) or any other name sends conflicting messages to a Scout with a different faith. He may think that he is in the wrong place or he may get the idea he is not wanted. This can be prevented by reviewing all prayers, graces and songs in advance to make sure that they do not indicate a preference for a particular faith or set of beliefs.

 

The key thing is that while we as Scout leaders should try to encourage a Scout to understand and exercise his "Duty to God", we must at the same time be very careful that our actions are not misinterpreted by any Scout to mean that his faith is unacceptable or that he should be in a different faith. Remember that Scouting does not define what a religion is and does not require membership in any particular religious group. We are interested in promoting a Scout's better understanding of his "Duty to God" because it aids good character development and improves citizenship skills. By using graces, prayers, songs and closings, we can help Scouts to remember that duty and to begin thinking about that duty.

-------------------------------

This guide is well done - I stand by what I said, that every Scout should be allowed to develop and expand his or her own faith whatever it is, and at the same time, the foundation of reverence is respect, respect for the faith of others. Religion doesn't need to be a source of division - and I think it too often is.

[KC9DDI]

Your concept and how you relate to that "higher power" is not necessarily the same as how everyone else relates to that higher power.

 

Well, of course. That's been the driving force of the past seven pages of discussion on this thread, and the thousands of hours collectively spent discussing this topic in general.

 

The problem is that many religions treat their own sacred texts and traditions to be more authoritative than a recommendation from the USSSP.

 

Religion doesn't need to be a source of division

 

What do you mean? Religions can and do prescribe fairly strict expectations of their members. Different religions have different expectations. Some of those involve the particular rituals and practices that their members need to engage in. That's why required participation in Scouting's generic one-size-fits-all "services" can be regarded as worthless, or borderline offensive, to people who associate with certain religions.

 

So that's the question: why do we continue to do these things?