Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[NJCubScouter]

Deacon Lance: And yet, in the guidelines that someone linked to earlier, the BSA disagrees with you. They say that a service should be "particular" to one faith only if ALL the participants are members of that faith. A majority isn't enough. I think that's a good guideline.

[SSScout]

Okay. Now that we have all but established a de facto "Faith, Religion and Chaplaincy" forum, I'd like to suggest to you viewing the Jamboree Scout Handbook at http://www.bsajamboree.org/filestore/jamboree/pdf/410-153.pdf

 

scroll to pages 33, 42 and then 75 to view the Jambo's devotion suggestions. Graces, meditations, topics for discussion. Drawn from, what Holy Script? What is included? what left out? What might have been included but wasn't?

 

Scout's Own? Which Scout?

[DeaconLance]

NJCubScouter,

 

They are addressing a situation in which everyone is expected to attend. I am not saying anyone should compelled to attend. I am saying effort should be made to help scouts fulfill their duty to God. For Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Mormon scouts that is Mass/Liturgy/Service on Sunday, for Jewish scouts it is Temple on Saturday, for Muslim scouts it is Mosque on Friday. Buddhist, Hindu and other scouts do not have a specified weekly service. A Scout's Own might be offered as an alternative for those who don't have their own faith's service available. The BSA obviously agrese as they are making Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Buddhist, Islamic, and Jewish services available at Jamboree. Philmont has four seperate chapels for Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, and Jewish scouts that are staffed and services offered daily.(This message has been edited by DeaconLance)

[NJCubScouter]

DeaconLance,

 

Unfortunately, the link provided by Shortridge doesn't seem to be working anymore, and I could not find the same document by a Google search. (I found what appear to be older versions, and council-specific versions, but not the current document that is (or was?) on the BSA national web site a couple of days ago when I followed the link from Shortridge's post.) I don't think it said that it applied only to situations where everybody is expected to attend, in fact I thought it said that everybody is free to attend or not attend, but now I'm relying on my memory, which isn't always a good idea at my age.

 

You mention Jamboree and Philmont, but those are special situations and I don't think this thread (or the document that I can't find) really applies to them. At Jamboree and Philmont you have a huge number of Scouts and Scouters in one place at one time, so there are enough members of each religion to warrant both a separate space for worship and a clergyperson(s) (or other prayer leader) for each faith. My understanding is that this thread applies mainly to troop camping trips, "regular" summer camps and the like, where the "scale" is not the same and you might have one boy from this religion, another from that one, etc. etc., so it makes more sense to have an interfaith service.

[DeaconLance]

NJCubScouter,

 

The bottomline is the BSA does not determine a scout's duty to God, the scout, his parents and his faith do that. The BSA, the council, the troop don't get to decide it is easier to just do a Scout's Own and that will just have to suffice. Every accomodation should be made so that the most scouts can fufill their duty. We shouldn't deny that to scouts out of some pc idea that if we can't accomodate all we shouldn't accomodate any.

[Scoutfish]

I'd never condone a "For the majority" service, and I'll tell you why:

 

Where and when did anybody give me, you or anybody else the rigfht to decide that one faith is more important than another?

 

Or you can look at it this way:

 

If you happened to be theminority, how would it sit with you? How would you feel? Good! That's how others might feel!

 

Sure, in MY opinion ( and belief) my faitrh is superior to everybody elses.

 

BUT.......I know, acknowledge and understand that everybody else feels the exact same way. I do not expect them to accept their faith to be dismissed as "unimportant" , no more than I would.

 

Try to accomidate everybody to the best of your ability? YES!

Decide just to work for the majority? NOPE! To do so is an affront to the 12th point of the scout law.

[DeaconLance]

It isn't about saying one faith is better, it is about helping scouts fufill their duty to God. For example, a district is having a camporee Fri-Sun. 50% of scout are Protestant, 40% are Catholic and 9% are LDS, and 1% is Buddhist. The District can get chaplains for the first three, the Buddhist priest can't make it. Your solution is deny the 99% the ability to fulfill their duty because 1% might feel bad? Sorry that is pc nonsense.

[Scoutfish]

Tell the Buddhist that it's being pc. Not sure where 1% number came from, but is that how it works?

 

13th point of the scout law ?: The scout respects the beliefs of others unless they are less than the minimum number or percentage of the pack?

 

 

 

50% of scout are Protestant, 40% are Catholic and 9% are LDS, and 1% is Buddhist.

 

What if it was 50% Buddhist, 40 % Muslim, 5% Hindu, 3% LDS and 2% Protestant?

 

All are 100% SCOUTS! tell them that ( in the spirit of scouting)all are equal.

 

Besides, there is a difference between trying to accomidate all and the previous conversation about providing for 4 groups. I'm pretty sure that BSA could manage at a huge national event to find somebody to fill in.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lots of thoughts here.

 

First, I coming more in favor of private time to worship ... a camp quiet time, particularly when the District or Council cannot get resources. The Buddhist boy in the case above should be expected to spend time in his meditations while others are at service.

 

Second, the National Council does provide multi-faith resources. Who here has seen "Eagles Soaring High?" at Philmont or one of the other HA bases? Covers Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Islamic faith communities with materials unique for each. Supply Corporation has published that as a resource. Wonderful tool.

 

Other faith communities should be encouraged to do similar items for their Scouts.

 

I like how Jamboree is being organized, with plenty of faith coverage. You'll note, though, that Chip Turner (and I've met him at Relationships Week conferences at PTC) kept the daily stuff to the OT. I think he could have done better, with a set of readings covering the major groupings. Oh, well.

 

SSScout ... yes, we do need to convince Terry that we need a forum for faith matters. I do not have to embrace anothers' faith, I do have to respect it. As I said in the first hours of this thread, I'll sit at the campfire with you, talk across the table with you, study and learn from you: Just do not ask me to go to your worship as a worshipper with you. I think that's reasonable.

[Scoutfish]

I think that's reasonable.

 

ME TOO!

[Trevorum]

I'm not certain what the solution might be. We just can't please everybody. However, I can tell you that folks in the majority are very often brusquely ignorant - and unthinkingly intolerant - of those scouts and scouters of minority faiths. Even at a Scout's Own, the fundamental approach to the service is Christian. For example, we are invariably prompted in a Christian ritual to "bow our heads" and pray. This is simply not my way; when I look up in reverence, it is frequently misconstrued as rudeness.

[Scoutfish]

You know Trevorum, I was brought up by a "Christian" family. Parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles.

 

Always told I should bow my head to pray because to not do so was disrespectful.

 

But it has always been my opinion that:

 

If the God I believe in truely exists, then he is definantlt wiser and more than mature enough to know that true disrespect is brought about by attitude and not a simple gesture or lack of.

 

I too look UP in reverence istead of bowing to pray.

I fel my God is every where, not simply reduced to an upward or downward direction as dictated by man...but if he is "up" as most prescribe to.....then I want to face him istead of looking away.

 

Kinda the same way my parents used to say" It's rude to look away from somebody you are talking to or being talked to by".

[John-in-KC]

Trev, you've actually made the point of one of my reasons. Scouting is supposed to be non-sectarian ... which means it favors no faith. It should provide resources for many faiths, vice a format that either is offensive to some/many.

 

Customs need to be honored as well. Each faith has their own customs, and they need to be honored. God looks in our hearts, not at our actions. Those are to help us.

 

So, you stayed home from Virginia as well, i take it, old Walika brother?

[evry]

I'm against this communal service held in order to satisfy the "A Scout is reverent". What does "reverent" actually mean? It means different things to different people. I was just on a camping trip and on Sunday morning, one of the leaders had one of the Scouts (a Chaplain's Aide) deliver a prepared sermon about God and nature. I'm not protestant, but I imagine it's the type of sermon one hears at protestant churches. To me, it was foreign! My reverence is by praying in private. It is very uncomfortable for me to stand around with others and "pray". So, why should I feel pressure to be a part of this nonsense? Why should my son be subjected to this? Isn't this proselytization to the protestant way of worshiping that I totally detest? It has no place in Scouting. Let me be reverent in my own way and don't subject me to this communal hypocricy.

[Trevorum]

John, yep - but sure wish I was there! I was asked to be on staff again in the Religious Relationships tent, but I couldn't take the time off. Darned work keeps getting in the way of Scouting!

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