Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Generic Nondenomination Worship - yuk. The proper term is an abomination.

 

A service centered around a plain-vanilla god, composed of all the good things held in common in all faiths, is not the same as worshiping my God (with a capital "G"). Unfortunately, the "lets all sing Kumbaya" crowd doesn't realize that attending this non-denominational worship is doubly offensive because they have an expectation that it is acceptable to everyone & everyone should be able to participate.

 

In US law, and in the BSA, all faiths are created equal. However, faith means that I know what I believe in is true, and conversely, what you believe in isn't true. We each have a right to believe what we believe, and that includes steering clear of things we cannot participate in.

[Scoutfish]

Getting back to the original question:

 

"Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?"

 

I say, yea. But I'd be lying if I said you'd find me attending. Personally, I feel closer to God standing next to a lake watching and marveling in the natural beauty of the lake, the sky, trees, cloudes, and nature in itself.

 

But is somebody gets a true benefit from a Scout's Own...then it's still worth it.

[John-in-KC]

Acco, teaching a boy to give a grace is, wile daunting for the boy, not a major theological event. Think of the Philmont grace, Johnny Appleseed, or even the doxology.

 

Now, in a unit, I suspect there is far more often than not, relative commonality in faith grouping and practice.

 

My issue is when larger gatherings of youth occur ... where faith groupings will be muddled. This is where non-sectarianism needs to become silent in practice and action. The materials National publishes are simply not acceptable. In trying to cover the bases by being generic, they become offensive to God.

[BadenP]

Gee John

I didn't know that you can speak for God or advise us what he considers to be an abomination?

 

Are you omnipotent as well? The worse kind of bigots I have come across were always the religious ones. God is not an entity with such a small focus as your religious views seem to be. Do you really think you are doing God's work with your unfounded accusations and condemnations? And please do not quote bible passages taken out of context to defend your precarious position.

[John-in-KC]

Baden,

 

Please see my earlier posts. God's Word speaks for itself. I've cited several passages from Scripture, in context. I have even provided a location to read them online.

 

Meanwhile, where are the citations I asked for from you?

[WAKWIB]

BP, All John has done to this point is toss out some essential, and universal Christian doctrine, and has used this as a framework to speak unfavorably of some incarnations of "Scouts Own."

He could quote Scripture all day long, but shouldn't really have too. Plenty of New Testaments available for any and all to read. Maybe you are not too familiar with it. Take some time to give it a second look.

[Narraticong]

BP-

 

Sorry, but John has earlier laid out the basics of Christian belief, and well within context. As others have mentioned, perhaps you might want to study Scripture more in depth. Whether some folks like it or not, God is very clear that there is only one way to Him and that is through Jesus. To accept other gods as even existing is to go against the Word of the one, true, God. It is not a matter of bigotry at all. Unfortunately, in an effort to make everyone feel good about themselves, we have developed an "it's all the same" attitude toward faith. You are welcome to believe whatever you like. But those of us who call ourselves Christians are bound to believe the Bible is the Word of God. And the Bible is very clear on the way to God. Jesus himself made it clear. He died so we might all have Grace. Pretty simple.

 

Ken

[bacchus]

Considering Nondenominational usually translates to be Protestant Christian, that excludes it in my mind as the recommended route. Interfaith services is the term we use that tries to be inclusive of all beliefs.

 

In my training I was told there were two ways to have a true interfaith service. 1) Have some type of service that celebrates all, but establishes none, of many services; or 2) have a single belief's service and invite everybody to attend. Note that in number 2, it is supposed to be a belief that is held by a very small amount of scouts present, or even held by none at all - don't ask me why.

 

Having the interfaith "mixed" service (my number 1 above) is very vanilla and weak - I don't like it. In fact I think many times it asks the congregants to participate in ways they do not think is appropriate.

 

I would absolutely love to attend the services of another (my number 2 above) and support them as well as see how they worship.(This message has been edited by bacchus)

[Gags]

"Personnally, I don't give a rat's ass if the service doesn't satisfy some Catholic, Shiite, Methodist or a Rabbinical Jew. So what? That is not the purpose - they need to get over it."

 

Acco - There's nothing to "get over". My comment, which I believe you were responding to, was trying to correct the impression that was given that Catholicism "rejects" (Beavah's original term) using a Scouts Own (SO). By saying "they need to get over it", you imply that there's a group of believers somewhere lobbying against the use of a SO (well, maybe that _is_ what we're trying to do here?) b/c it doesn't satisfy their requirements for worship.

 

Which is why I tried to suggest that maybe a SO should be less of a worship opportunity, and more of a teaching opportunity - not about the particulars of other faiths, nor necessarily how the faiths have some commonality, but, as a way to help each Scout live the Oath and Law. Isn't that the purpose of a SM Minute? Should we try to use the SO then as an extended SM Minute?

 

(Haven't yet read the Atlanta links John posted - will try to reply to that later.

 

YiS,

 

Gags

[BadenP]

To John and his crew

 

Gentlemen, I have two graduate degrees in Theology and Religious Studies as well as being an ordained Christian minister with a church of over 600 families. I have studied and analyzed scripture probably more than all of you put together. All that aside what John stated in his last post was nothing short of Christian bigotry, superiority, and arrogance. The Bible was never meant to be used as a weapon to denigrate others which is what John did. Taking scripture out of context, in that last post which he did, and then claiming to be able to speak for God and knowing how and what God thinks is in theological terms Apostacy.

 

Christian prejudice, superiority, and political agressiveness seen in the last decade plus has been nothing short of self serving hate mongering. Jesus said himself to the people, "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars and to God that which is God's."

Many modern day Christians have tried to influence both and failed. Christ did not start a new religion, he brought a new way for us to live our lives in peace and harmony with one another. Humanity took these teachings and turned them into a myriad of faith traditions which often ran contrary to the original message, and then took the scriptures and used them as a weapon to conquer, denigrate, and kill others who did not agree with them, even among their fellow Christians.

 

Your attitudes about Scouts Own mirror that same attitude, even if you disagree with it none of you have the right to try to dismantle it or deprive others from using it. Your attitudes remind me of the hypocrisy seen in many of the Christian churchs today.

[acco40]

Gags- I think we are in agreement. For some, a Scout's Own does satisfy their own personal need for worhsip but yes, probably not in the eyes of most major organized religions. The point that I'm trying to make is that a Scout's own service should not try to satisfy all walks of religious life - for if so, it is bound to fail. It should strive to be inclusive, respectful, etc.

 

John-in-KC - Saving the Philmont grace, to me, is a "major" theological event on par with the Lord's Prayer, Declaration of Faith, Hail Mary, etc. It is giving thanks to Lord for various "things" and the only drawback to some is that it doesn't seem to have the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval from any major religious organization.

 

From my persepctive, even 100% of the Scouts/Scouters in attendance to a Scouts own service are members of the same religion - I would still recommend the boys plan a generic service and not just copy down what they been exposed to in the past. It should not be looked on upon as a tool to replace anything but as a learning vehicle.

 

 

[WAKWIB]

Technical clarification.

Apostasy means to renounce, or reject the tenants of a faith once held.

Synonymous with the phrase: "To fall away from the faith."

Example: If I were to wake up some Sunday, go to my church and announce that I know longer believed the Bible was the Word of God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is not the way of salvation (or is one of many ways}; I would be considered an apostate from my church, as well as an apostate from the entire New Testament doctrine.

[jhankins]

Regardless of what religion you are a part of, The 12th point of the Scout Law still holds true. By asserting publicly that your religion is the one true way and you won't comingle, educate yourself and be firm enough in your own beliefs to know that by hearing others you aren't going to be converted -- you're condemning your fellow scouts who believe differently and consider then 2nd class citizens.

 

Loving your neighbor seems a concept lost on many Christians these days. Being a part of your neighbor's life, understanding his beliefs and being a friend is so much a part of that.

 

If you're not firm enough in your own faith to listen and learn about your fellow scouts and their religion -- a way to better understand and minister to them -- then I really feel sorry for you.

[Jeffrey H]

I say "yea" to nondenominational as long as it's Christian based. I don't even mind one that uses Old Testament only if there are Jewish Scouts present. That said, I prefer to keep to Scout's Own Services within my Troop.

 

My big objection, for me personally, are services where various "gods" are being addressed by using various prayers in so-called inter-faith services. I went to one Scout's Own service that was like that and I vowed "never again." Yuck.

[jhankins]

Thanks for all the insight in this thread. It's obvious the Scout Law is still lost on many of the adults and BP's vision of world peace is still a long way off.