Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[John-in-KC]

BadenP,

 

Where Beavah is coming from is a view held by more than one Pastor who is also a Scouter. It's also held by more than one layman. I wish I was going back to DC next weekend for my church bodies' national scouting association annual meeting, I'd actually put a motion in play to instruct our President to take a motion to the National Religious Relationships Committee condemning the published Scouts Own as anathema to Christendom, the Jewish faith, and Islam, among others.

[Narraticong]

Just back from a week in the woods with the boys at Scout camp. Wish I had gotten in on this thread earlier. I am in line with my friend John on this one. At best, I consider Scouts own get togethers to be a time of brotherhood or fellowship, but for me they do not replace my regular corporate worship. At worst, they are disrespectful of the one, true God.

 

Our local Scouts Own tend to run more toward common morality and how Scouting relates to it. We tend to sing God Bless America, pass a plate for the World Friendhip Fund, talk about the Religious Emblems program, and then head back to camp. Really very little of what a believer of any faith would consider worship.

 

I guess those who are not deeply committed to their faith might consider a Scouts Own to be worship. And I if it encourages a boy to explore his faith deeper, then perhaps it has a value. But from my viewpoint I am concerned if boys begin to believe all "gods" are equal. John has shown Christian Scripture is very clear on this matter.

 

This week my 13 year old son used the camp outdoor chapel as a place for his own quiet contemplation. I did not ask whether he was praying or not. He tends to be personal about his relationship with the Lord. But out of 1,800 acres, that little spot was where he went to have his time to think and relax. To me that is a good sign and perhaps the best use of a camp chapel.

 

Ken

[Beavah]

Yah, no ego on my part, BadenP. I wasn't involved in developing national's materials nor do I usually serve as a camp chaplain, leastways not for any faith other than my own.

 

Just had to adjudicate too many hurt feelings and objections over this stuff over the years is all. Seems like it engenders ill will as much as it engenders good will. As several point out, da generic stuff is objectionable to many Christians and most Muslims, the Christian-patterned stuff is offensive to Jews and Muslims and for Eastern religion kids it baffles 'em with boredom. That's just my experience, eh? Glad to hear some folks have had different experiences, eh? But then it might depend on whether or not you're serving in a position where you are more likely to get complaints or be listening to lots of different unit folks.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

I think this brings up a great point:

 

Intent versus actuallity.

 

I do not think that by being Generic, that any service or Scout's Own was meant to imply that all gods are equal. I do not think theye were meant to be generic in the sense that any religion felt watered down.

 

I believe the original intent behind having a "generic" service at camps or holding a non denominational or faith specific service is to teach respect and ...ummm...getting alongness. Sorry, drawing a blank on the right word there.

 

 

Know what I mean? Your religion or beliefs are never secondary to mine, nor are they on the same level of eqaulity. Yours ( in at least your prespective, should be considered higher, better or most true.

 

And that's great!

 

But as far as having compassion and respect, you recognize that I feel the same way about my religious views. And the next guys, and the next, and the next.

 

I do not need to feel for or even give credence to another scouts religion...I just need to respect his right to have it and to respect his right to feel it's importance .

 

Yeah, a generic service could be insulting to some, but not to me. Why? Because I learned a long time ago, that it's stupid and a waste of time to take offense to things that were not meant or intended to be offensive.

 

Actions are not always so important as their intentions. We all make mistakes, things get taken differently from what we meant them to.

 

This make sense to anybody?

You ever sy something and meant it as a compliment, but it was taken offensively as an insult? Well, if you ever have conversations with women...I know you have!

 

 

Anyways. having a non denominational service or generic worship is not meant to be insulting. It was not meant to water down anybody's beliefs.

 

It was meant to "not choose one over another in importance or validity.

 

It was done with the intent of respect.

 

Generic services may suck, but they were intended for the right reason.

 

It's only as offensive as you let it be.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Google has a lot of stuff: Let me introduce you to some of it. I endorse none of it. As I have said, it's anathema:

 

First, Commentary from the Atlanta Area Council:

http://www.aacrrc.com/Scouts'%20Own.htm

 

Some writers have said that Scouts Own is not a worship service. They are wrong. In the broadest sense of the term, Scouts Own is a worship service. Some writers have said that the focus of Scouts Own is on the feelings of the Scouts who participate. This is incorrect. Although participants in a worship service should feel good as a result of participating, the focus of any worship service is God.

 

Some writers have said that there can be no true interfaith worship, because each faith group sees God differently. This is a short-sighted view. Even though each faith group has its own theological perspective and its own traditions, there are many religious truths which are common to all faith groups.

 

I think some folks in Atlanta need to re-read the NT.

 

Here's the OA Natioanl Lodge Leadership Development Conference Scouts' Own Format:

http://lld.oa-bsa.org/docs/Scouts%20Own%20Service%20-%20Generic%201.pdf

(there is another generic and an Amerindian one as well).

 

Here is one posted out on scribd:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7513142/BSA-Scouts-Owns-Service

 

I can keep going on...

 

Non-sectarian means we don't give preference to one faith over any other. As a Scouter, I'm ok with that. We need to support each faith group and family in our Councils to raise young people according to the traditions of faith. We are not here to be a substitute for faith development.

 

SSScout is right; we need a faith topics forum.

 

I'm beginning to understand why some elements of Baptist Churches (which elect to use Royal Rangers vice Scouting) and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod will not participate in Scouting. We need to support our families in their childrens' development of faith, not be a substitute for faith in those families

 

[WAKWIB]

John-in-KC, Reading the scripts brought to mind a number of protestant services I've seen at Bartle over the years. Protestant, as you and I understand it (and the over-riding historical doctrine of various protestant denominations declare), should emphasize the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fortunately, I have had the pleasure to see a few protestant camp services in recent years that made a better effort on that score in that they clearly proclaimed the Gospel and kept away from the suggestion of man's attempt at righteousness through his own works.

I think some of this "Scout's Own" stuff from it's earliest days until now has been a soft approach to tapping into God's revelation through conscience and creation, and a rather weak attempt even at that level.

[packsaddle]

Again I am reminded of the statement by The Scout, "the purpose of religion is not to bring people together."

And religion seems very effective at NOT doing it.

 

The basis for these concerns is that faith is inevitably a completely personal aspect of life for each of us. As such it ought to be under the influence and control of each of us individually, along with our families (especially for youth) and the CO (with regard to the unit).

On the contrary, BSA is bent on maintaining a common, centralized policy. This kind of centralized control inevitably conflicts with individual freedoms and individual choice. These things should be obvious.

What is less obvious is that another source for this conflict (and the centralized policy) is the desire by some of us to maintain a status quo that used to exist by default: the dominance of Christianity over all other minority faiths in BSA. This condition cannot be sustained without the risk of alienating minority faiths that BSA would like to have as members in order to keep up membership numbers.

As Trevorum noted a long time ago, the times - they are changing. Christianity remains the majority faith in this country and it still pervades the lives of all of us. But if we want to reduce these conflicts, the ONLY way to do it is to leave matters of faith to the CO's, the families, and the individuals. To try to 'manage' aspects of faith in any other matter denies the truth that religion is not going to bring people together and especially NOT at the hands of a faceless committee in the centralized power structure of a corporation.

[Trevorum]

ooo - a citation!

[SR540Beaver]

John-in-KC: "I'm beginning to understand why some elements of Baptist Churches (which elect to use Royal Rangers vice Scouting) and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod will not participate in Scouting."

 

Close, but no cigar. The Assembly of God Church uses Royal Rangers. Southern Baptists use Royal Ambassadors. But your point is taken and shared by me. As a Cub aged boy in the mid-60's, I was a Royal Ambassador at church and a Cub Scout thru the Pack at my school. Oklahoma is heavily Baptist and I know of no church that is CO for a Pack, Troop or Crew. Back in 2004, I was looking for a CO for a Troop that had split off from another Troop and my own Baptist church turned me down as well as another Baptist church and an Assembly of God church. It was no use going to the Catholic, Lutheran or the numerous Methodist churchs. They all had scouting units already. I finally found a small Presbyterian church who took us in.

[BadenP]

I can understand why some of you diehard Christians do not like Scouts Own because it is not Christian oriented enough or puts Christianity on par with others. Let me let you in on a little secret, God is not a Christian only God, he has exsisted long before the birth of Christianity and will be around long after Christianity is gone. Nor does God have an exclusive pathway to heaven for Christians only. God is the creator of all living things and as Genesis states when God created the world "he looked out and saw that it was good."

 

You know the Catholic Church states unconditonally that they are the only true way to salvation, as do many other Christian faiths. We as a people have become so ethnocentric in our faith traditions that we have to denigrate other faiths, even among Christian groups, to justify the superiority of our own. That is not Gods way, or the way of Jesus, or the Buddah, etc. so it really amazes me that we humans claim we can speak for God, that is the true apostacy. "They have eyes yet they do not see and ears but they do not hear." Peace!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Gags]

This was already clarified, but wanted to add my two cents. When Beavah stated in the original post that "our generic services are rejected by Catholics, LDS, Muslims, and many protestant denominations", it's not that a Scouts Own goes against Catholic teaching, but just that a Scouts Own does not satisfy the obligation to attend Mass on a weekly basis.

 

Another comment got me thinking - "He mixed OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita (sp?), and assorted other sacred documents trying to claim that God is the same everywhere. It's just not so." Perhaps we need to stop thinking about Scouts Own as less a "worship" service, and more as an opportunity to show Scouts that religion (dare I say "all" religion?), or maybe just using the term spirituality (minus the "new age" associations) is the way humanity searches for 'The Truth' - the questions such as Why are we here? What does it take to lead a good life? What IS a good life? What does God want from us? and even Is there a God? I think each of the above mentioned "Great Books" (OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad Gita) attempts to answer many of those questions. I wouldn't claim that God is the same everywhere, but I am beginning to convince myself that the search for God (and/or Truth) is.

 

YiS,

 

Gags

[packsaddle]

Hey, I can answer those for you:

What does it take to lead a good life? Complete honesty

 

What IS a good life? One that does as little harm as possible while being as constructive as possible.

 

What does God want from us? Whatever (he/she/it) wants. 'It' seems to be a moving target - changes with each of our actions.

 

and even Is there a God? If you think so then there is, in your own mind. That is sufficient for billions of believers...unless you're not certain there IS a god. In that case you're agnostic.

 

Why are we here? To outperform the market.

 

Back to the search...I know I left that thing around here somewhere...

[John-in-KC]

To BadenP: I have laid out my argument from the Scriptures of Christendom. Please cite your arguments in similar writings

 

to Gags: I refer you back to the comments from the Atlanta Area Council I posted above. There are Scouters who believe an interfaith service is worship. If so, please count me out. That crosses a bright line my God gave me.

 

To WAKWIB: You and I are blessed to be in one of the largest Councils in the Nation. That we bed down 1500 campers a night at Bartle gives us a tremendous access to resources and capabilities. Even so, we cannot support all comers, which is why we should expect some Scouts and Scouters to have need of some of the quiet places on our proprty, such as the woods at the edge of campsite Cheyenne :-)

[acco40]

I think having the boys planning a service or even a grace before meals is a good teaching tool. I've counselled boys, don't ask someone to take off their hat, ask them to prepare themselves for grace. Don't tell them to bow their heads, kneel or turn clockwise three turns and stomp their left foot. To each his own. Is it a worship service? Of course it is to those who worship during the service and of course it is not to those who do not.

 

Personnally, I don't give a rat's ass if the service doesn't satisfy some Catholic, Shiite, Methodist or a Rabbinical Jew. So what? That is not the purpose - they need to get over it.

 

The practice does open the eyes of the scouts to different religious cultures, practices and some are amazed that not everyone "does" as they do.

[mds3d]

Personally, I feel that Generic "Nondenominational" worship services are vain, mildly offensive practices.

 

We cannot worship in everyone's way at once.

 

First off, Nondenominational services are just that. They automatically exclude all non-Christians. They also usually exclude many Christians as well.

 

There is no way to be both collectivity religious, and all-inclusive.

 

For example, How do you start a prayer?

 

Let us instead, allow each scout and scouter worship in the way that pleases his deity. If scouts/scouters want to worship together, let them. However, don't make them sacrifice their worship to include some belief they do not hold.

 

The only one who should be regularly planning worship should be the CO appointed Chaplain and his Aide. Even then, everything they do should be OPTIONAL.

 

I am a conservative Christian and have never attended a worship services that was put on by Council/District that did not exclude and sometimes offend my beliefs about worshiping God. So, after two years early in my career I have never attended such an event since. I quietly worship on my own or with those who I know share my beliefs.

 

Often when we conduct worship service that tries to include as many people as possible, we actually include no one and are only fooling ourselves.