Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[Twocubdad]

I'm in most agreement with BadenP. The word "worship" carries so much connotation and personal meaning, I think it is counterproductive in this sense. Each of us has an idea of how we should worship. I can understand how someone whose beliefs are outside the mainstream Judeo-Christian faiths would be offended, despite the best efforts to make the service accommodating. I can also see how someone with very strong beliefs, like John, would also be offended.

 

Consequently, I try hard not to use the term "worship service" when I'm talking about a "Scouts' Own Service" -- although when you try, it's difficult to do. If you attend a Scouts' Own with the expectation that it will be a worship service, you're going to be disappointed. It's like attending a cooking demonstration expecting a full meal. The little taste you get here and there won't satisfy you.

 

A Scout's Own should simply be a time for all Scouts to come together and show Reverence to the higher being in which they believe.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Twocubdad, I think you might be on the same wave length as me.

 

Now, the way I see it, it's not a full flrdged worship for anybody, not even close!

 

And I know that most of you get that too.

 

But it sounds like it's being made more into something it's not even supposed to be.

 

Ever go somewhere with your kid when they were young? I ean really young?

 

When my son was 2, and we went shopping for groceries, basic household needs or just visited friends or family, we'd take along some animal crakers, or even Vienna sausages for him to snack on.

 

They were not lunch! They were not a meal either.

Just a very basic amd minimal amount of the most basic nourishment to hold him over.

 

Ever take a drink with you while you drive somewhere? Coffee? Water? Soda?

 

It's not your lunch. It's not breakfast. It's not even an emergency ration. It's just something to hold you over or at the very least ...wet your palate. To keep your mouth from going dry.

 

 

So, the way I see it, a Scout's Own is not even intended to be a substitute service. Just something to "wet your palate" and keep your spirit from going dry.

 

 

[jhankins]

Like I said, it's not meant to replace your normal worship, the purpose is to unite Scouts under the scouting banner and to be another method of learning to apply the Scout Oath and Law.

 

John-in-KC's position neglects to remember the teachings of Christ that are commandments with a promise, such as loving your neighbor as you love yourself -- and I feel are detrimental the unity of Scouting.

[shortridge]

John wrote: "I will even come to your worship service (as I take kids in God and Church to see a service in synagogue) as long as I am in learning mode, vice worshipping mode."

 

I like that distinction between learning and worshipping. That's kind of how I try to look at camp "worship services" - as an opportunity to learn about different beliefs, either a mix (in the case of an interfaith service) or a specific one (a faith-specific service). I welcome the opportunity to broaden my knowledge and perspectives. But if the chaplain asks folks to "pray in Jesus' name," I'll be the guy sitting there contemplating the beautiful sunset instead. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. We're all learners.

 

Does anyone know the history of when "Scouts' Own" fell out of favor? I like that term a lot better than "interfaith worship service," for many of the reasons outlined in this thread. "Scouts' Own" just fits a lot better.

[John-in-KC]

Here is "love thy neighbor as thyself" in full context:

 

Mark 12: 28-34

 

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

 

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

 

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

 

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

 

Here is The Parable of the Good Samaritan in full context from Luke 10: 25-37

 

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

 

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

 

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

 

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

 

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

 

In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

 

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

 

The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

 

The role of the Christian is to proclaim the truth in love. The truth is Christ is the salvation. Christianity is not a tolerant religion. If you want complete openness and tolerance, go to Unity or Unitarianism. Now, am I to judge you? NO. I am to proclaim, but you have choice. If you choose not to follow, well, you are trusting your works will get you to Heaven. I don't trust my works, I know how much I fail. i rely on the all-encompassing sacrifice of God Himself, through Christ on the Cross, and His resurrection and return.

 

I go back to what Pastor Gross, one of the Philmont Chaplains, taught me at PTC 7 years ago: As a Pastor, bound unto the Lord to proclaim the Good News, he opened his service/reflection times with a survey of the folks in chapel: If all said they were of Christianity, he went with an overtly Christian worship service. If anyone said they were of another community, he dumped all prayer and all hymnody, and went to a class on morality and the absolutes morality driven by faith demand.

 

This came about after I had seen a worship service at a Scout Reservation where the Chaplain tried to be all things to all people. He mixed OT, NT, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita (sp?), and assorted other sacred documents trying to claim that God is the same everywhere. It's just not so.

 

My personal opinion is that Scout Reservations, Council and District events should strive to give faith communities access to their own faiths. Absent that, chapel time should be a time of quiet reflection by adult and youth, contemplating the goodness of the Lord, in however you worship him.

 

Non-sectarian does not mean blended.

 

[John-in-KC]

One addendum:

 

The Christians' neighbor is to the weak, the poor, the needy, the oppressed ... but in giving service to them, the Christian is not doing it for salvation: That's a done deal (Eph 2: 8-10), rather, the works are those set for us to do by the Holy Spirit because of salvation. Further, we are not to put our lamp under a bushel (see the sermon on the mount in Matt 5), but to proclaim the good news even in our service.

 

Christians welcome all in the door, but you are going to hear the message of Grace while you are inside our door.

 

I would rather see the Scout take his camp chair out a few hundred feet from the center of the tenting area, open a songbook or a testament or ... and spend 15 minutes thinking about the glory God gives so freely. That to me is infinitely better than the Scouts' Own that has been published by National.(This message has been edited by john-in-kc)

[Beavah]

It's not your lunch. It's not breakfast. It's not even an emergency ration

 

Then seriously, why bother? It costs a bunch of time and effort. Time and effort that could be spent providing a nutritious breakfast.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

 

REally? spending 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes cost a bunch of time and effort?

 

It never costed me a thing. As far as time. After spending a whole week, or even just a 3 day weekend, up to 30 minutes is next to nothing.

 

Now, I'm not sure about other packs, but we do Scout's own after breakfast and before pack out/ LNT check.

 

[dScouter15]

So we should do away with grace before meals as well?

[BadenP]

"I can not think of any interdenominational service that was worthwhile"

"So why do it" - Beavah.

 

To try to answer your questions Beav, most Christians in the USA go to church less than once a month, many not at all, according to a recent study done by some Christian focus groups. For many scouts the Scouts Own may be the only exposure they may have to a scout is reverent. Thats the why of doing it IMHO.

 

Worthwhile, hmmm, what does that really mean? Did the boys come away with a new perspective on an issue facing them? Did they learn that anger or violence or just giving up on something important in their lives is never the answer? We adults as we get older become more jaded and unbending in our faith practices and not open to alternative methods. Many go to church to be entertained instead on really focusing on what the real purpose of being reverent really means. As a Christian minister I have witnessed and experienced some very special and spiritual moments at interfaith gatherings. Maybe some of you need to help guide or train, or even be a part of your Scouts Own teams in creating a meaningful and worthwhile experience. There are enough jaded naysayers and negative people in the world today, my way is the only way philosophy has no place in any form of showing reverence for those things we are grateful for in our lives.

[Scoutfish]

dScouter15,

Are you replying to me, John or Beavah?

 

As for me, I never said do away with anything. I am only saying that Scouts own is not supposed to be a full fledged church service no more than sleeping in a tent in a sleeping bag is supposed to your full fledged house.

 

The whole situation is a temporay deal. A get away from the normal routine of life excursion.

 

We cook differently, we sleep and shelter ourselves differently. We do so knowing it's not our regular routine nor is it a attempt to try and mainatin everything up to it's 100 percent on par for daily life.

 

Scouts own is just a break from the break from life to give some time to worship or reflect. It's not a fullfledged church service, worship, or whatever your religion asks of you.

 

But it does keep you from avoiding or missing any participation of your fatith completely.

 

But again, from my standpoint, faith comes from within, not what you do on the outside.

 

In some sense of what way John views the world, I myself can feel closer to God by walking through the woods, watching the sunrise over the ocean or just enjoying the natural ( meaning non man made) beauty of the world....not following or conforming to some rite or ceremony created by man.

 

Now, I say some sense as I do mnot mean to imply that John does this exact thing.

 

[John-in-KC]

Much depends on the age group, as Scoutfish just noted. For the Cub Scout, the protestant religious emblem curriculum is "GOD IS FUN: NEXT!" ... if you take it down to its raw theology. A Cub is only going to take 5 minutes or so of sitting still (trust me, we don't get much more out of them inside a church either).

 

5 minutes is time for a song ... like God's love is a Bubblin' over, and time to say "God is great".

 

A Webelo, taking God and Family, gets a little more out of his curriculum, but it's still "God is FUN! NEXT!" It's designed for short attention span. By this time, I want to teach a table grace that actually matters ... Philmont, Johnny Appleseed, variant on the Doxology.

 

When you get to Boy Scouts, you're starting to develop serious intellectual underpinnings to faith. This is the area I speak of here. I want Councils and Districts, not to mention OA Lodges, to have more than one something, that actually addresses the matters of faith for youth. I can live with somewhat big families, but you have to find a way to deal with the one-off, such as LIBob and the Tao. Here, my answer is let him have time away from others. Heck, there are days in the wild where I want time away from others, to pray in His peace.

 

When you get to Venturing, well, they are at the stage where they are challenging their faith, and I want staff and chaplains who can help them go 1 on 1 with God as they figure out where their faith lives will be.

 

I believe faith is first and foremost a function of FAMILY. Scoutings role is not to be a purveyor, but rather to reinforce.

 

What is published as "Scouts' Own" is a detriment, not an aid. That includes the garbage of pablum inside the WB curriculum.

[Beavah]

REally? spending 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes cost a bunch of time and effort?

 

Yah, now add in the hiking time and time gettin' guys together. Then multiply by the number of kids and adults, and add in all of the time the chaplaincy put into getting the program together.

 

Dat's a lot of person-hours spent on something that doesn't even qualify as "emergency rations"' eh?

 

I get the argument, sort of, that it gets a lot of kids their first / only contact with communally expressed faith. But not if what we're giving 'em is so weak, eh? And it often is.

 

Beavah

[Scoutfish]

Yeah Beavah,

 

It is weak, but - from my point of view - If the kids first/only exposure to communally is at camp..there are bigger problems.....just the same if a kids first exposure to maners or personal responcibility was to be at camp...Mom and dad are the bigger problem no?

 

And if that's the case, Even if the Pope himself performs Mass at a Scout's Own, the kid in question will still come away no different.

[BadenP]

Beav

 

IMHO your argument seems to be, I get nothing out of it so why bother. I didn't know that you personally set the standard for the whole BSA, lol. Look I agree some of the services I have been to were weak, mainly because there are no real guidelines to developing a really strong program, which is the main problem. All I can say to you is don't attend, but don't come across as some kind of naysayer just because it suits your own ego.