What is a CO not allowed to do

[click23]

I would think not using advancement in a unit by decree of the CO would violate the first point of the charter agreement

 

"The chartered organization agrees to ©onduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Missouri_COR, I would provide the IH with all the info that I could, rifle and shotgun shooting merit badge pamphlets, the guide to safe scouting, the requirements to become at NRA-certified Shotgun Instructor, NRA-certified Rifle Instructor and and NRA-certified Range Safety Officer, a copy of the charter agreement signed by the IH(provided by your council office), and a copy of the Venturing Shooting Sports Outstanding Achievement Award requirements. I would do this so that they can see what the policies of the BSA are with regard to guns, and the shooting sports can be an integral part of a crew.

 

Wouldn't it be worse if they were to do "something inappropriate", and it got out that the CO prevented this boy from learning the rules of safely using a firearm.

 

 

[shortridge]

That's pretty incredible that the IH and his boss didn't realize that Boy Scouts shoot. Sounds like an education on more than just shooting sports is in order. Maybe invite them along on your next campout, or to visit summer camp? Or take the tour with you on check-in day?

 

Practical demonstrations of exactly what the boys can do will accomplish a lot more than a presentation by someone in an office. If they can see Tenderfoot Johnny pass his swim test, or PL Andre lighting a campfire, or Range Master Stan very seriously discussing rifle safety, that should go a long way toward alleviating their concerns.

[shortridge]

Double post, sorry.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[BadenP]

Every CO signs a charter agreement provided by the council/National stating its intention to use the BSA program within the guidelines established by the BSA. Now if for example if a CO is a church they can also mandate that all leadership be members of that church, or be all male, that there will be some of that church's belief system incorporated into the program, no atheists or non church members allowed, etc., etc.

 

What a CO CAN NOT do is to change the advancement system and say for example, we will skip all the prior ranks and make all our boys Eagle scouts as soon as they join the troop, or skip the requirements for particular ranks and award those ranks to the boys. If a troop goes to camp a CO has no authority to forbid the boys not to use the rifle range since this is a council program being held on property that does not belong to the CO.

 

In other words the CO are allowed add some tweaks here and there but the charter agreement itself specifically states that they are contracting to use the "National BSA program", they can not create a totally different program or radically modify the program. Now there are Explorer and Venturing units organized for special purposes, such as Fire and Rescue, Shooting Clubs, Law Enforcement, Sports Medicine, etc., etc. who do not use a traditional scouting program per se but are considered part of the BSA, remember there are no official rank advancement programs, with the exception of Sea Scouts, associated with these groups.

 

So yes a CO can exercise certain mandates they want to see in their programs but it is not a carte blanc privilege.

[Eagle69]

In this day and age it isn't as surprising as you may think to find people who have no idea about what the Scouting program involves. If they weren't Scouts or someone in their family wasn't a scout so that they were exposed to the elements of the program they truly would have no idea of what all we do unless they go to the trouble to do a little research. The rifle range at Scout Camp has always been one of the most popular places since I was a scout 40+ years ago, go back and look at old scout books and you see ads by Winchester & Remington, but again if you have been brought up in isolation from the program and didn't do some research you wouldn't know this.

[ScoutNut]

>>" Now there are Explorer and Venturing units organized for special purposes, such as Fire and Rescue, Shooting Clubs, Law Enforcement, Sports Medicine, etc., etc. who do not use a traditional scouting program per se but are considered part of the BSA, remember there are no official rank advancement programs, with the exception of Sea Scouts, associated with these groups."

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

Sounds like da IH is concerned that one of the lads is going to "go Columbine" and then it will reflect on the church. Yeh always hear new things in this work, and that's a new one!

 

I think what yeh do is ramp up your presentation, and talk about the number of people who get injured accidentally by firearms, and the number of people who learn from video games that guns are toys, and that learn from modern media that guns are how yeh solve disputes.

 

And then yeh make the point that the BSA is one of da only groups who are working diligently to teach kids the responsible use of firearms, how to treat 'em with respect and avoid accidents, how never to misuse or play with 'em as toys.

 

I bet the congregation doesn't ban marines or law enforcement officers for fear one of 'em will "go Columbine". You're tryin' to teach the same level of responsible citizenship and safety to young men who may well join one of those professions in a few years.

 

Yeh might try the analogy to driving. Young folks are killed when driving with some regularity. Or kill others. Or show up in da news. The answer to that isn't banning driving, it's teaching 'em how to drive well. Young folks are killed by drowning with some regularity. The answer to that isn't to not let 'em near water, it's to teach 'em how to swim, and be safe, and treat water sports with respect.

 

I think you'll be able to convince 'em. But yeh want to enlist some "expert witnesses" and put on a good show, and be ready for their questions and arguments.

 

Good luck with it!

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

scoutnut

 

1)I was referring to the Exploring program prior to Venturing, not LFL, and there are crews organized around careers, not LFL, which is allowed in the program.

 

2) Venturing has awards youth can earn but they are not ranks and not considered advancements in the scouting sense of the word, Sea Scouts do have specific rank advancements. It is important that you understand the difference, most of us that have been involved and trained in the Venturing program do.

[shortridge]

"If a troop goes to camp a CO has no authority to forbid the boys not to use the rifle range since this is a council program being held on property that does not belong to the CO."

 

Following that line of reasoning, a CO's rules and restrictions only reply to unit programs held on property that belong to the CO. So a troop chartered to a church that restricts adult leadership to men only could allow women to register as leaders when it's at summer camp?

 

Balderdash! (One of my favorite words, sorry. )

 

Saying "We don't want our Scouts shooting" is not a radical change to the program. It's on the same plane as saying "We don't want our Venturing crew to accept girls."

[boomerscout]

I don't believe Beavah was speaking of altering advancement requirements. I think he was saying some units don't put rank advancement -- such as first class in first year -- foremost in their unit program. They have fun camping, going to summer camp, playing in the out of doors, but rank is left to catch as catch can - strictly up to the individual

[BadenP]

shortridge, I stated specifically the "Authority" not that they can not ask the boys not to participate. If a boy is at scout camp and chooses to participate then thats between he and his parents and I seriously doubt any CO/IH would even care enough to pursue it further, you try and prove me wrong with a documented case. The reality is, outside of religious, moral, or gender issues a CO does little in changing the scouting program in their facility and I think you know that. So to answer your rebuttal I say to you balderdash, lol.

[ScoutNut]

Baden, I do understand the difference.

 

It seems I missed the word RANK in your statement. No, Venturing does not have ranks, or advancements, in the "scouting sense". Possibly because Venturing is a different program from Scouting. However while Venturing's awards are achievement based, BSA does consider them a type of advancement. The Venturing Methods include the following -

 

"Recognition. Recognition comes through the Venturing ADVANCEMENT PROGRAM and through the acknowledgement of a youths competence and ability by peers and adults."

 

Sorry, I also did not realize you were speaking about pre-Venturing Exploring as you stated "Now" in your original comment, and did not make the distinction that you were in fact talking about Senior Scouting Explorer Scouts.

[BadenP]

scoutnut

I think that the word advancement is really misused in reference to Venturing, you don't become a Ranger Venturer or a Silver Venturer, you are always a venturer who may or may not have earned these awards, they do not give one venturer senority over another, and do not even need to be used in the crew program at all. Many crews are hobby oriented like reinactment groups, or career oriented, yes and not LFL either, medicine, search and rescue, because the flexibility of the venturing program enables a crew to be organized around ANY interest the group may have.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Beavah]

Yah, I think we're hijackin' Missouri_COR's thread just when he might need some additional insight or help in how to work with his CO and balance expectations. So let's leave off (or spin off) the other unrelated stuff, eh?

 

B

 

[SSScout]

Very interesting....

 

Church sponsors Scout Troop. Church did not understand that it is an option (underline option)for Scouts to learn about safe firearm use.

Church (understandably) is concerned about youth and firearms. Will not allow firearms on Church property.

In my family, we do not allow firearms (or their representation) in our home. It is understood that games and activities (paintball, war world, etc.) that make shooting humans seem like "fun" is against our faith and we will not pursue or support them. Yep, we even get into a discussion about waterguns at CSDC, but another time for that.

This does not mean that we did not allow our Scoutson to earn his Riflery and Shotgun MBs. Knowledge and awareness are important.

I have a stepson who has turned his life around (another nother time) and returned from a stint in the army as knowledgeable about firearms as anyone can be. He well understands our belief.

The church is not changing the requirements by saying the Scouts in it's unit may not earn the shooting MBs (how about Archery? also dangerous), it is merely giving vent to it's own moral compass and it's results. The shooting MBs are "optional", not required. Actually, come to think of it, all rank requirements are "optional".

But again, knowledge of an issue often results in the lack of desire for further activity. The church must sit down with them and make sure the Scouts understand the reasoning, the faith requirements inherent there in. Otherwise, there will be much resentment and that will be a worse result.

Quakers have always been on the non-violent side of things, and when the VFW and American Legion come to decorate some graves in our cemetary on Memorial Day, they respect our wishes and do not bring firearms on our property for their ceremony. Pioneer Quakers often had a rifle over the mantlepiece (so to speak) but it's "intention" was the important thing, not it's mere presence.

Scouts use .22s and shotguns in the safest possible environments. If there is any doubt about the quality and supervision of the shooting range teacher/leaders, it is incumbent upon the accompanying Scout Leaders to speak up and do something about that.

Learning the safe handling of a firearm might save a life in the unknown future of these Scouts. Knowledge is never a bad thing. The use of that knowledge needs guidance. That is where the faith comes in, I think.

 

YiS