Flag Retirement

[BDPT00]

In spite of other opinions, I still think that SSScout's description of the 9/11 ceremony was very respectful, meaningful, and memorable. I'll offer a variation of the same idea. What if the ceremony ended with a darkened room, and the U.S. flag remained up front with the spotlight on it. Everyone leaves in silence. I think that would be extremely meaningful and respectful.

[Krampus]

Personally I think there is a difference between respectful and what should be done. Can something wrong be respectful? Absolutely. However, the US flag always leaves the podium first. Other ways to show respect: Have the US flag the only one on the podium. A single flag for a solemn event. Stosh is correct in that the handbook and the US Code are clear on how to handle this situation.

[CalicoPenn]

The code never says that the US flag should leave the podium first - nor does it say it must lead all the other flags out of the room at all times.  It actually states quite specifically that it must lead other flags if carried in a procession.  By delaying - by letting the other flags leave first and then waiting for quite a few seconds (and it only takes a few seconds to withdraw all the other flags) it could be said that the US Flag was no longer part of a procession of flags, but was now the sole flag being removed.  To summarize - being marched out with other flags, it's a procession and the US flag must lead.  Being marched out on its own, after other flags have already been removed, it's not a procession.  Moving (and briliant) ceremony accomplished, flag code intact!

[Krampus]

Section 7 of the code starts with: "The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag’s own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line." I think that means that it is first in line. I guess you could argue the flag was removed on its own and was its own procession. I guess it depends on how much time elapsed. I would advise my scouts to keep to the code and retire the US flag first. When we conduct a color guard for local veterans groups we always check with them on their flag protocol. We never want to run afoul of their expectations.

[desertrat77]

I've been in a lot of flag ceremonies, and watched a bunch.  As a scout, scouter, and throughout a 30 year military career.

 

We should follow the code or rules/regulations to the best of our ability.  However, every ceremony will have gray areas, or mistakes made. 

 

Respect is not only action, but also intent.  

[Stosh]

As one who teaches flag protocol to the next generation of people, I want to leave a legacy that I taught according to that which is prescribed by the US Congress and BSA as respectful.  I'm not a fan of making up rules as we go along especially at a particularly solemn occasion.  

 

Whereas the scouts and scouters may think they are doing it respectfully, if a veteran came up to me and made a comment such as this Marine did, I would be totally embarrassed.  I didn't put myself in harms way to protect that flag, but he did.  If he's uncomfortable with the way I handled it, I totally missed the point and would learn never to do it again.  

 

I'm thinking that if one were to adhere to the US Flag Code and the BSA Handbook that there wouldn't be any Marines coming up and asking embarrassing questions about what I taught these boys.

 

My boys will no longer attend a certain Boy Scout summer camp because oi EXACTLY this issue of how to do a flag ceremony using the directions given in the US Flag Code and BSA Handbook.

 

If others wouldn't be embarrassed if questioned by a veteran like this, then I guess the onus of the problem doesn't lie with the veteran. 

[cyclops]

 

It is a reminder to me of the power of a lasting memory.

So much for lasting memory...reminder needed, lol.

 

All the rest is squabbling.

[desertrat77]

If others wouldn't be embarrassed if questioned by a veteran like this, then I guess the onus of the problem doesn't lie with the veteran. 

 

Stosh, I'll bite.

 

This is a "it depends" situation.   I organized many ceremonies during my career.  Changes of command, 9/11 commemorations, memorials for fallen troops, retirements, promotions, reveille, retreat.  Attended and participated in many more.  Some were in deployed locations with foreign dignitaries and troops present.

 

One thing I learned right away:  people love to point out mistakes.   Sometimes the mistakes are legit, and the feedback is right on and deserved.   Other mistakes aren't really mistakes, but personal preferences that have morphed into thou-shalts.   Yet another category is just plain nit picking.

 

At the end of each ceremony, I always made myself available for the folks that wanted to amble by and let me know the honor guard screwed up a particular movement, or that the narrator mispronounced "singularly" or one of the firing team members was out of step, etc.   In most instances, I let them have their say, and thanked them for their feedback.   For the perpetual nit pickers in the wing, I'd offer them a slot on the honor guard, or the opportunity to plan/organize/execute the next ceremony.

 

So back to the case at hand.  Let's say the entire ceremony was done respectfully, solemnly, and well, aside from the issue of flag order at the end.   If the police officer/Marine vet had spoke to me, I would not have been embarrassed.  I would have thanked him for his attention to detail, and said we'll do better next time.    

 

I love our nation's flag.   But we cannot turn each flag ceremony into an up-tight situation where every little mistake is pounced upon.   People are funny.   If they are constantly criticized over every error, they'll do fewer ceremonies.   Or none at all.  Then the flag is sitting in a desk drawer.

 

On the other hand, if the entire effort is characterized by sloppiness, smugness, carelessness, etc., I'll be the first to wire-brush somebody, and I won't care how hurt their feelings are.   But a well-intentioned ceremony, with a few discrepancies?   Just depends.  If it's a clear cut violation of the code or service rules/customs, I'll provide some private, gentle feedback.   If it's not, I learned after many years to just say "well, I wouldn't have done it that way, but Old Glory still flying."

Edited September 19, 2015 by desertrat77

[SSScout]

""If the police officer/Marine vet had spoke to me, I would not have been embarrassed. I would have thanked him for his attention to detail, and said we'll do better next time. ""

 

Yep. My attitude exactly. He thanked me for the Scout's being there and we parted with a shake of hands.

[Stosh]

As a scouter teaching scouts, I have a responsibility to teach correctly.  Making a mistake is not the same as either not knowing out of ignorance because one did not study up prior to teaching, or two blatant disregard of the prescribed protocol for showing respect is a form of disrespect in and of itself.

 

If the protocol does not specify then there is wiggle room.  The US Flag Code has no prescribed manner in how the flag should be folded, so I teach the wiggle room provided by BSA and instruct my boys to fold in a triangle.  I do, however, teach them that the US Flag Code does NOT prescribe the triangle fold, so any nice folding of the flag is acceptable.  

 

Repetitive disregard for the flag over time creates a whole new "tradition" of disrespect that is often paraded around as "correct" when in in fact is a blatant disregard to what the US Flag Code prescribes as appropriate respect.  

 

The only conclusion I come to when I see such activity going on and when sports figures drape themselves in the Flag and do all sorts of "really cool" things out of ignorance it only demonstrates to me a level of care-less-ness that I really don't want to be a part of .

 

I follow the US Flag Code not because I'm avoiding a unenforceable fine, or the avoidance of scowling stares, but because it's important to me to do it as correctly as possible.  

 

As scouters we are all anal about getting every little jot and iota covered when we're dealing with advancement requirements, which in the long run really don't make a bit of difference to me.  But when it comes to the US Flag, then whatever trips your trigger and floats your boat is Devil-may-care okay with anything goes, does a disservice to those around expecting something done right.  

Well, I think this whole thing kinda gets summed up with "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country...."  Well his is one's duty to their country to do it correctly.

[desertrat77]

As a scouter teaching scouts, I have a responsibility to teach correctly.  Making a mistake is not the same as either not knowing out of ignorance because one did not study up prior to teaching, or two blatant disregard of the prescribed protocol for showing respect is a form of disrespect in and of itself.

 

If the protocol does not specify then there is wiggle room.  The US Flag Code has no prescribed manner in how the flag should be folded, so I teach the wiggle room provided by BSA and instruct my boys to fold in a triangle.  I do, however, teach them that the US Flag Code does NOT prescribe the triangle fold, so any nice folding of the flag is acceptable.  

 

Repetitive disregard for the flag over time creates a whole new "tradition" of disrespect that is often paraded around as "correct" when in in fact is a blatant disregard to what the US Flag Code prescribes as appropriate respect.  

 

The only conclusion I come to when I see such activity going on and when sports figures drape themselves in the Flag and do all sorts of "really cool" things out of ignorance it only demonstrates to me a level of care-less-ness that I really don't want to be a part of .

 

I follow the US Flag Code not because I'm avoiding a unenforceable fine, or the avoidance of scowling stares, but because it's important to me to do it as correctly as possible.  

 

As scouters we are all anal about getting every little jot and iota covered when we're dealing with advancement requirements, which in the long run really don't make a bit of difference to me.  But when it comes to the US Flag, then whatever trips your trigger and floats your boat is Devil-may-care okay with anything goes, does a disservice to those around expecting something done right.  

Well, I think this whole thing kinda gets summed up with "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country...."  Well his is one's duty to their country to do it correctly.

Stosh, I understand and respect your points of view.

 

Also, good point re the advancement requirements.   Some scouters just relish splitting hairs, turning the trail to Eagle into a big snipe hunt.  Discourages many good scouts from even bothering with advancement.  

[BDPT00]

So how we fold the flag doesn't matter.  OK.  You want some negative comments?  Fold the flag into a rectangle, or don't bother folding it at all at your next flag-lowering assembly.  Or how about folding it in a triangle with the union folded inside.  Even though you might know you're absolutely right doesn't make it acceptable to the vast majority of people.  Most would find the action disrespectful.  I would, even though it was done in earnest.  The flag code only goes so far.  Your version of respect may differ from mine.     

[Krampus]

Is it safe to say there are prescribed ways of doing things (US Code) and accepted practices (various manuals on flag etiquette from the military) which have made their way in to civilian life which have become common practices?

[BDPT00]

You betcha.

[Rick_in_CA]

So how we fold the flag doesn't matter.  OK.  You want some negative comments?  Fold the flag into a rectangle, or don't bother folding it at all at your next flag-lowering assembly.  Or how about folding it in a triangle with the union folded inside.  Even though you might know you're absolutely right doesn't make it acceptable to the vast majority of people.  Most would find the action disrespectful.  I would, even though it was done in earnest.  The flag code only goes so far.  Your version of respect may differ from mine.     

So if I understand you, if you attended a flag ceremony where it was folded into a rectangle, you would be offended? Even if it was done in earnest?