If the BSA were to provide services to girls, whats the best way?

[BDPT00]

Bring on the AHGs!

What, are we afraid of making friends with some Christian girls? I far prefer that to mingling with a group that openly says they don't really care if there's a God or not, or whether their members are willing to say so.

We're not merging! We're sharing resources. We're being friendly ... what a novel idea! American Heritage Girls appears to me to be a very wholesome group, and they have a well organized program. I'm impressed, and I'm not afraid.

BDPT00

[clemlaw]

I have to admit that I had never heard of the American Heritage Girls until I read this thread. I did take a look at their website, and it said that they had something like 3000 youth members, IIRC. So it hardly seems like it's the kind of large organization that will somehow bring vitality to the BSA. It certainly seems like a wholesome organization, and if some BSA unit wanted to engage in some kind of joint program with some AHG unit, I would certainly have no objection. But nationally, it seems awfully small to engage in any kind of partnership of equals with the BSA.

 

And it's probably not everyone's cup of tea, and in an organization as large as BSA, there are lots of cups of tea--and non tea, for our LDS friends

 

And as a Christian, I read their mission statement or whatever it was called, and I don't think there was anything in there that I couldn't subscribe to personally. However, and maybe this is unwarranted, I did get the impression that someone else might look at my beliefs and say that they weren't really what they intended when they wrote that statement. While I basically agree with it, it does use some terminology that's not necessarily the same buzzwords that my Christian denomination would use.

 

And if I, as a Christian, feel somewhat uncomfortable with their mission statement, I suspect that people of other faiths might feel even more uncomfortable.

 

Again, it sounds like a great group. But it's not for everyone. In fact, it's probably not for the majority of people who are involved with BSA.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

[TNScoutTroop]

AHG has not quite embraced the approach CS Lewis called "mere Christianity", but they are close to it. From the conversations we've had with them, I don't think that there would be any difficulty for any (o)rthodox congregation ("o", not "O"), who holds to the beliefs found in the early church creeds.

 

On the other hand, if "people of other faiths might feel even more uncomfortable", wouldn't that be sort of the point?

 

AHG is specifically trying to be a girl's scouting organization for the sort of traditional Christians excluded by the GSUSA (or whatever acronym is correct). And, if that's exclusive of other faiths . . . well, again that's sort of the nature of orthodox monotheistic belief systems. When truth claims are specific and taken seriously, they tend to exclude competing truth claims. The only way round this is to not make those claims seriously, as modern mainline liberal (and non-orthodox) denominations tend to do.

 

As far as size goes, I think BSA is trying to connect with an organization that's growing, during an era when the BSA is shrinking rather dramatically and persistently. AHG serves a population -- evangelical or orthodox Christian churches -- that is substantially underrepresented among BSA CO's.

 

Many, perhaps most, orthodox denominations tend to perceive BSA as at odds with specifically Christian beliefs in the way GCUSA is.

 

If the affiliation with AHG opens these denomination's eyes to the fact that it is possible to charter and operate a specifically Christian, and genuinely outdoor focused, BSA troop, the result may well be substantial growth for AHG, but also significant growth even for BSA.

 

Except the RC congregations, none of top CO's found in the CO list in this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America, are specifically orthodox. Even the Baptist category includes both the fundamentalist Southern Baptists and the quite liberal and non-orthodox American Baptists. And, at least in our area, there are hardly any troops sponsored by Southern Baptist churches.

 

The very existence of organizations like Royal Rangers and Christian Service Brigade is almost certainly resulted from ignorance of the fact that it's possible to charter and operate a specifically Christian troop. When those competing (b)oy (s)couting organizations got their start, BSA was still in its heyday, and probably wasn't worried about reaching out to under-served populations.

 

But today, after decades of shrinkage, BSA professionals are probably looking over the demographic data with a fine toothed comb, looking for those population niches. Affiliation with the AHG opens to door for the BSA into one of those populations.

 

TN Scout Troop

[shortridge]

TNScoutTroop wrote: Many, perhaps most, orthodox denominations tend to perceive BSA as at odds with specifically Christian beliefs in the way GCUSA is.

 

OK, I'll bite ... huh?? Why? Who? What's your definition of an "orthodox denomination," and just why are they at odds with BSA? Funny, I always thought BSA was at odds with the liberal congregations. So National can't please either extreme?

 

kcshrader wrote: I'd suggest their parents take a very close look at the program. Believe it or not, AHG's non-discrimination policy means that the girls only have to promise to say the Oath (love God, cherish my family, honor my country, serve in my community) and abide by the rules & regs. The Statement of Faith only applies to the adults.

 

So AHG will accept girls of any faith ... just tell them that their parents can't help out because they're nonbelievers?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[VigilEagle04]

"So AHG will accept girls of any faith ... just tell them that their parents can't help out because they're nonbelievers?"

 

Which I take to mean "we just want to have your girl involved because she is young and we want to proselytize to her without you around."

 

Not wanting to offend anyone here, but that's just how it looks from an outsider's perspective, an outsider being a non-Christian. Don't get me wrong, I think faith of any kind is a wonderful thing, things like that just make me a little suspicious. If/when I have children, I will expose them to all religions when they are of an age to have a cognitive understanding of them, but I would want to be there.

[kcshrader]

"So AHG will accept girls of any faith ... just tell them that their parents can't help out because they're nonbelievers?"

 

Which I take to mean "we just want to have your girl involved because she is young and we want to proselytize to her without you around."

 

No, the adult leaders are the ones who have to sign the statement of faith. Lots of other adults can help out -- they just simply have to pass the background check (safety regs and all that).

 

Believe me, I have lots of non-leader parents "hanging around" during a meeting, keeping an eye on what's going on. They're even welcome to sit in on the unit meetings and hear exactly what's being taught.

[TNScoutTroop]

We're still working out our policies on that, but basically, all leaders will have to be approved by the church, and will in turn, have to approve of our goals. But, we already have volunteers working to help us, who are not part of the church.

 

And, even though all the youth are currently from our church, not all of them are committed to the same things we are.

 

There's already been interest expressed by neighbors and others not in the church, and we've made no secret at all about what we're seeking to so. For now, we are not inviting boys outside the church, but only so we can get established and fully train our adults and volunteers. Later, we plan to invite boys from our neighborhood, and the schools nearby.

 

We are committed to being as open and clear about our goals, content, and methods as we possibly can be. So while boys who participate will be taught things not often part of Scouting, neither they nor their parents or guardians will be surprised by any of it.

 

TN Scout Troop

[BadenP]

IMO the whole topic being discussed here is bordering on the absurd. The BSA and AHG have nothing in common, and serve two very different purposes. A merger of the two organizations is not only impractical but improbable. Come back to reality people. If the BSA wants to make the organization coed then they should, but this seperate but equal idea didn't work with the GSA and will not work with the AHG either.

[BDPT00]

"Absurd? Nothing in common?"

We're both in the character building business. That's plenty for me.

Personally, I would much rather deal with an organization that is willing to state what it stands for than with one that seems to have no idea.

BDPT00

[Pamedic18]

Ok so lets get back to the meat of this issue as opposed to worrying about LDS or any other organization. Lets face it BSA is more apt to go co-ed and develop its own program than to co-mingle with another group. Personally I agree with Bevah and with my wife being a GSUSA unit leader and myself a committee member I have seen first hand the abandon of outdoor skills in their program and those leaders who still have a strong outdoor component being ridiculed. As far as BSA wiping out GSUSA Im not sure if that would happen but there will defiantly be some fierce competition. And don't thing this is just being hypothetical BSA going co-ed will happen in the next 8-10 yrs and we need to think about the best way to do this now. As previously stated the option to go fully co-ed or stay one gender should be the way to go, especially after cubs. I would suggest the creation of two new programs, one a coed option after cubs, the other an all girl option. These would run parallel with boy scouts. And leave venturing as is. I would say cubbies being coed shouldnt be an issue, look at organized sports at this age level for the most part they are co-ed and there are no issues. Well this is just my 5 cents.

[Nike]

The next ten years are make or break for Girl Scouts. We get new handbooks next year, and I am highly concerned about what will be in them.

 

The best thing BSA could do for Girl Scouts is to take the office bound, haven't seen the outdoors without a latte, staff in New York for a trek at Philmont, a canoe trip up at Northern Tier, and a sail trip at Seabase.

 

Then, everyone who hates their daughter's troop, either start a different type of troop or get in there and HELP. Many of our current female leaders don't have outdoor skills and haven't been on anything but the most miserable and uncomfortable camping trips somewhere an eon back.

 

Show them how the outdoors develops real leadership skills and self-esteem through actual achievements, AS MANY OF OUR GIRLS ALREADY KNOW AND DEMAND!

 

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

[BDPT00]

My experience says that the girls aren't interested in doing anything like or with the Boy Scouts. They don't want to play. Just for the sake of argument ... do the Girl Scouts do anything to indicate that they don't hate men? There's an underlying agenda coming down from the top (the inside). What is it, and what does GSUSA stand for? Anything? How can we know?

BDPT00

[JMHawkins]

The vast majority of American kids have been in co-ed schools for over a century. For decades, those schools failed girls at a shocking rate. Over the last generation or so, our public schools have made significant changes in order to better serve girls, with the result that girls are doing much better and getting better educations. The results are also pretty indisputable that our schools are now failing boys at a shocking rate.

 

Surprise surprise, boys and girls are different and respond better to different environments. Most boys will learn better in an environment and program tailored to boys, and most girls will learn better in one tailored to girls. Thats true at nearly all ages, even before puberty and the distractions of boy/girl-craziness kick in. However, there are also important skills that kids need to learn in co-ed groups. To me, that means that the ideal program would be one with both single-sex and co-ed elements.

 

Considering that our schools are unlikely to change any time soon, the co-ed parts are mostly handled already. Scouts is one of the last bastions of single-sex development. It would be a terrible tragedy to squander that critical resource by going to all co-ed units. If BSA wanted to extend the program to girls below Venturing age, I think it should be done as separate programs, from Cubs on up. Even with the programs covering largely the same material, making them non co-ed will provide a better experience for the youths.

 

Wed need more leaders? Wed need more if we made it co-ed too, or were folks thinking of just doubling the number of Scouts without adding more adults?

 

My 2 cents, if the need for this is because GS are dumbing down their outdoor program, start a pilot Webelos Girls (somebody please pick a better name though) program for 10-14 yo girls that is adapted from the Web/Boy Scout programs. As they age-out, they can join Venturing crews. If it's a success, expand it and then try a pilot Girl Cubs program for 7-10 year olds.

[Nike]

Experiences differ. In the South and West as well as overseas, girls want more of an adventure. Our Day Camp this year was hiking, rock wall climbing, archery, canoeing, an entire day learning about everything at the post theater, sports and wide games, and one crafts section. Our 1st-5th graders LOVED IT! Every girl I talk to about Girl Scouts says first thing, "I want to go camping." What's the number 1 requested adult training in my neck of the woods: Camping for Leaders.

 

The girls who want adventure are turned off by the way the program is implemented because of the horrible training and desperate program revision that's been going on the last twenty years. There's been way too much "Congratulations! You're a troop leader. Turn in your financials by June 15." If a leader isn't confident in her outdoor abilities, she won't go there and possibly endanger the girls...Pretty similar to those BSA troops who barely leave the parking lot while camping, eh?

 

GSUSA has hemoraghed membership since the 70's because girls were finally able to participate in so many other activities. We hemoragh now because many of the writers of our handbooks and other materials wouldn't know a Brownie from a Cadette if they assaulted said writer with Thin Mints. National doesn't have a clue! Any of this sound familiar?

 

And, the backlash against men in GSUSA happened during the 80's when BSA and our nation were rocked over and over again by child molestation cases. I throughly beleive that our SafetyWise manual is written by our national insurer. Can you even begin to think what would happen if there was wide-spread molestation of Girl Scouts going on? BSA and the Catholic Church are cakewalks compared to that.

 

Once you hit the Service Unit and Troop levels, WE WANT OUR DADS! And any Council staff that turn down dad volunteers without good reason are died in the wool idiots. Oh yes, I will put you to work in the great outdoors if you want to set up a orienteering day, Pioneering, Dutch Oven class, Belay for Beginners, J-stroke for Juniors, Rockets and how not to blow them up, etc.

 

Anyway, if BSA were to begin a Guides program, all they'd have to do is pull out the 60's-70's era GS books and keep the boys and girls separated. Probably half the GS leaders I meet are also BSA leaders and/or active committee members. The other half either let their husband have guy time with their sons at Scouts or they don't have boys.

 

GSUSA believes in God and that a spritual life is important in being well rounded, but doesn't mandate that anyone else believe same. God is still in the Promise, but if you substitute it with your particular faith's preferred name, do it. Believes that girls need female role models, just like BSA wants men for boys. GSUSA does not promote abortion, but does believe that girls need accurate information about reproduction. This is a big deal for girls. They're the ones who get pregnant. And it's all about growing young women of courage, confidence and character who make the world a better place. Sounds pretty similar to the BSA mission doesn't it?

 

Yes, I get sick of the Girl Scout bashing and when I'm on GS boards I equally defend BSA. If your local GS are witchy little handfuls of attitude, I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with them. However, I would ask you to remember that Girl Guides and Scouts were a happy discovery of girls wanting to be included, too, in a time when girls didn't do things like that. The fear of raising a tom-boy was real. Girls as Scouts was R-A-D-I-C-A-L in 1912. Thank goodness Juliette Gordon Lowe was partially deaf.

 

Does GSUSA have more than it's share of lesbians in the office? Probably, but GS are asked to leave thier sex lives at home. Do we have some bitter feminists still hanging on? Yep, but they'll retire one day. Have we tried to appeal to everyone while losing those we appealed to first? Can you say BSA Urban Scouting debacle in girl friendly colors? Does every Scouter agree with everything coming out of Texas? Same with our ivory tower gals in NYC.

 

So, in sum, every SM, ASM, and other Scouter has more in common with the GS leader down the way than you may think. Girls need a girl place and boys need a boy place. That doesn't mean at all that we can't be mutually supportive of each other as troops despite what our national bodies may yammer on about.

[Life-Scout-Ldr]

I believe that the BSA can and should support girls more. Below is why I think that as well as some ideas on how.

 

Why?: Well in my opinion the BSA has the best program availbale for youth in our country, and I fully support co-ed programs such as Venturing and would like to see the female demographic benefit more from the BSA program. Even since the beginning of Boy Scouts girls have wanted to be a part of it. And why not? They want the adventure and experiences their brothers recieved as much as anyone. When I was a scout I knew several girls that wanted to do the things I was doing. And as an Adult leader I see it even more today. Most of the girls I have met that are, or were, in girl scouts say they would rather do what we are doing, and many of them seem to think that GSUSA is really only about selling cookies anymore anyway with musch pressure for girls and units to sell more and more. Perhaps parts of GSUSA forgot that the program was about the girls and not the cookies. (We aren't perfect either, we need to remember that the BSA is about the youth not the adults.)

 

What the issue is.: I can see how Cub Scouting could easily integrate girls since it doesn't specify gender in the name. The problem comes at that critical point in transition from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting. There could be some added organization for girls, but it would include some adjustments and a new program.

 

How?

*Cub Scoutscould be made co-ed from Kindergarten through 3rd grade [Lions (this is already pilot program in existence), Tigers, Wolves, Bears] with little adjustment to the program (mostly in the way of books adding depictions of girls the way they now incorporate minorities in color. Change the faces a little add a pony tail as an idea). This program is quite family focused anyway, so why not incorporate the family by bringing in young girls to the program?

 

*Webelosthis would still be a boys only programthe transition to Boy Scouts

Webelos Equivalent (name suggestions welcome)this would be a girls' only programthe transition to Boy Scout Equivalent program (with girl specific needs)

 

*Boy Scoutsthis would still be a boys only program (Tenderfoot through 1st class)

Girl Equivalent (Lady Scouts BSA?)this would be a girls only program (either rename the ranks or keep them the same as Boy Scouts, just with some girl specific ideas that still incorporates the outing in Scouting) (I like keeping the rank names the same or quite similar for ease and less expense of chagning too many things)Also this could involve Brother and Sister Troops doing some activities together.

 

*The older groups I believe could have a couple choices here.

 

1. Have top 3 ranks (Star, Life, Eagle) the same and be a co-ed unit that supports both the Boy and Girl units respectively as Leaders and Instructors while working together for more diverse experiences in scouting.

 

2. Have separate top 3 ranks [females could earn the Eagless (female eagle) rank as males could still keep the Eagle award while both having as much weight and connotation as the Eagle award] (I like the idea of keeping the ranks the same, but I do feel like the Eagless would be a cool definitive for girls)

 

3. Join venturing that can still allow them to work toward highest rank awards in their respective sides (unless they are the same) as well as Venturing awards.

 

 

Personally I like 2 and 3 as this would be in line with the options for Boys at this time where older scouts can be part of a Troop and/or a Venturing Crew.

 

In the end I think that it makes sense to have the younger scouts together, then diverge them for a couple of years until they are old enough to be of Venturing age, and then bring them back together at that time to learn together once again.

 

Please let me know what you think about these ideas, and any naming ideas for the new groups I have proposed. I decided to put this in this forum to see if the there is interest in these ideas or if I should go to CampFireUSA to fill the niches in my community that BSA curerntly does not.

 

Respectfully,

 

Life-Scout-Ldr

(This message has been edited by Life-Scout-Ldr)