If the BSA were to provide services to girls, whats the best way?

[Twocubdad]

A few years ago at World Jamboree I had a conversation with one of my mates regarding the co-ed program. Interestingly, Barry, he made your same point that there is no more hanky-panky among male and female Scouts than in church or school group. His attitude, however, was dismissive, that it was no more or less of a problems.

[kcshrader]

Mark me as another one who thinks the AHG/BSA alliance is the way to go...

 

I'm the troop coordinator for a brand-new AHG troop, and many of the parents are very enthusiastic about partnering with a local BSA troop. It looks to be a wonderful way for the boys and girls to work together on some things (because that does offer valuable experiences) and yet still allow for the same-sex benefits/refuge aspect as well.

 

Though the funniest comment I've heard about it was "Will they teach us to build a fire?" Yeah, my adults have a long way to go to become safe in the woods .

[The Blancmange]

 

Mark me as another one who thinks the AHG/BSA alliance is the way to go...

What about for non-Christian girls?

[kcshrader]

Mark me as another one who thinks the AHG/BSA alliance is the way to go...

 

 

What about for non-Christian girls?

 

I'd suggest their parents take a very close look at the program. Believe it or not, AHG's non-discrimination policy means that the girls only have to promise to say the Oath (love God, cherish my family, honor my country, serve in my community) and abide by the rules & regs. The Statement of Faith only applies to the adults.

 

Yes, the girls are going to hear about the Bible and Christ. But the program isn't intended to convert anyone -- this isn't Sunday School.

 

As a coordinator, I'd be comfortable working with the family of a girl who claims either a Jewish or Muslim faith... as long as the family is willing to work with me, I suppose.

 

Since the Boy Scout Oath still references "duty to God" there's obviously a faith element to the BSA program. I think we'll find much more common ground than we will dividing lines.

 

Is AHG going to be for everyone? No. No program ever is. (not even, gasp! Boy Scouts )

 

I guess my point is, it's a better alternative than taking BSA co-ed.

 

 

[Lisabob]

I have no problem with programs like AHG. I think they serve a good purpose and engage kids in a positive way. I don't think they're a good partner for BSA though. While the faith requirement may only restrict adult membership, the reality is that there is still a heavily Christian element to the program. Again, I do not think that is a bad thing in and of itself.

 

But, the BSA is a non-sectarian program. We have boys who are Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Deists, etc. Not all are monotheists and certainly not all are Christian. Not to mention a fair number who don't belong to any specific religion. The religious element of the boy scout oath and law is very loosely interpreted by the BSA, itself. (Let's not get into whether that's a good thing - then this would become an issues & politics thread). Putting a program that is explicitly not Christian together with one that is explicitly Christian would create some real challenges at an institutional level. And while the dominant majority (Christian) might be open to people from minority religions attending, that's only because it is a one-way conversation where the majority viewpoint is privileged. Easy for the majority to accept that and welcome others into that framework. Harder to be the person from the minority perspective, in that situation.

 

Maybe it would be less of a problem in small communities where practically everybody does belong to some flavor of the same basic religion but I can't see it working in more diverse settings.

 

 

[moosetracker]

I don't think the "AHG/BSA alliance" is to merge the two programs into one, but rather have some common groupings like camporees or summer camp programs. I could be wrong but I get that from this comment

 

"It looks to be a wonderful way for the boys and girls to work together on some things (because that does offer valuable experiences) and yet still allow for the same-sex benefits/refuge aspect as well."

 

In which case I don't think the difference of religious ideals will be any more different then a multi-religious group being at a camporee next to a 100% LDS unit, or methodist unit.. It is just that our LDS will probably not camp next to a AHG group and not because of their christian based beliefs.

[kcshrader]

I don't think the "AHG/BSA alliance" is to merge the two programs into one, but rather have some common groupings like camporees or summer camp programs.

 

Exactly.

 

At the local level, I haven't actually tried to connect with a BSA Troop yet, but we're hoping to possibly do a joint service project, or perhaps an all-family campout... something where sons & daughters could work together.

 

Maybe we could eventually do some joint work on some badge requirements, or perhaps have one troop teach the other? I know I'd love to have some boys come in and do a "real" flag ceremony for us, because we're still struggling with them (having done exactly one so far). I'm guessing that could fit into some sort of service hours for the boys....

[WAKWIB]

At a local level with consenting units = a fantastic opportunity. I hope it works out well for you guys and gals!

[clemlaw]

It looks like I'm a little late to this discussion. But I thought it was interesting that so many people are suggesting that Cub Scouts are one area that could be co-ed.

 

I suppose that girls might fit in better to Cubs than they would to Boy Sc---er, I mean Scouts. But based on my admittedly limited knowledge of GSUSA, it seems to me that Brownies is probably their strongest program, and I suspect it's pretty comparable to Cub Scouts (except their cookies are better than our popcorn).

 

Therefore, I don't really see much of a need.

 

I have a daughter who is excited about being able to join Brownies (or whatever they call their Kindergarten program) next year. Until I saw this thread, it never crossed my mind. But I wonder if maybe she'll be an Eagle Scout like her old man.

 

If you would have asked me ten years ago, I would have said of course not--Boy Scouts is for boys. But now, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure that co-ed troops would be a good idea. But I really can't think of any good reason why there shouldn't be troops (or maybe sub-troops) for girls.

 

Maybe there is one, but I really can't think of it, other than having to print up new letterhead that says something like "Scouts USA" instead of "Boy Scouts of America".

[Bando]

I would be personally quite disappointed if the BSA were to associate themselves with the American Heritage Girls. I was also dismayed that the AHG had a display at National Jamboree.

 

A Scouting group that opens the statement describing itself with "A Christ-centered..." is not the appropriate organization for the BSA to align itself if it intends to provide a coed program. Sorry.

[VigilEagle04]

I will say that I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the AHG as a group to ally with. Having been involved with a troop that catered to many that some other troops in the area didn't want for religious reasons (I'm in the Bible Belt for sure) I've experienced some of the attitudes expressed from an organization of non-discrimination when it comes to religion, and those scouts can say for sure they are doing their duty to god, and they are reverent.

 

I myself have come under fire at least twice. Once I was told by the District Commissioner I could be thrown out of the BSA, I actually wrote an article on that experience and sent it to National as well as the publication it was being put in. This was while I was a youth and working on camp staff.

 

So yeah, if we have an open group here that is non-discriminatory, no statement of faith except to, essentially, Nature's God, and things like this can arise, I don't care to see what could arise from a group like AHG in the same sorts of scenarios.

 

As for going co-ed, this country isn't ready for it. This country is much more prudish when it comes to these things. We may not realize it much, but in comparison to many other countries, save maybe China and the Middle East, when it comes the idea of boys and girls intermingling apart from the classroom, we're very conservative. It just comes from our Puritanical roots.

 

I remember seeing the experiment unfold in Canada. It was quite interesting to see the changes occur in the switch to Scouts Canada from an outsider's perspective. I think we Americans, visiting their camp, thought more about the girls being there than the Canadians did, and this was the first year of the organization going co-ed. I never heard of any issues during my stay up there, and never heard of anything in subsequent visits as an older youth, and then as an adult. We would head over to the campsites of Canadian troops, play capture the flag with them, join them for dinner (all cooking was in camp), go hiking, what have you, and the girls just seemed to blend in with all the rest. I'm sure not every unit was as seamless in the transition as those I was in contact with, but it really made me think about the BSA going co-ed some day. While I think we are closer now than ever to the idea of it, we still aren't very close.

 

Now, all that being said, I would love to see it be a fully co-ed program. There are many things we could learn from their side, and many things they could learn from us. I've said this before to people though, and they've laughed about cooking, cleaning, and sewing. All I have to say to that is those things are covered in the BSA curriculum as well, lol.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

[TNScoutTroop]

We're trying to do what some here have discussed: establish a Christian Scout troop side-by-side with a AHG girls group. Several statements have been made that seem to be incorrect, at least based on what we've been able to discover.

 

+ So far as we can determine, BSA is not NON-sectarian, but POLY-sectarian. The fact that many troops were in the past associated with what might be called "American Civic monotheism", along with the low profile most LDS units keep, has created the perception that a vague and nonspecific monotheism is the Scouting norm. But, this was never actually the case. (Perhaps this belongs in the Scouting 'myths' thread?)

 

+ Again, so far as we can determine, this has NEVER been the BSA position. Rather it has accepted local units that are specifically sectarian, in many different ways.

 

+ By contrast, the GCUSA has adopted -- nationally -- an exclusively non-theistic humanism as its sole sectarian affiliation. It's not possible to have either a truly Protestant Christian, or a truly Mormon Girl Scout troop. Thus, the GCUSA is MONO-sectarian.

 

+ We're pretty sure that the BSA's affiliation with AHG is not exclusive. We may be mistaken, but it's our understanding if the "Druids of America" want to set up the AOG (American Oak Girls) and worship the "oak tree God", and do fund raisers, so the troop could go to a Camporee at Stonehenge during the solstice, the BSA would go along.

 

. . . Now to what we're interested in: we'd be very interested in keeping in touch with other units that are establishing affiliated Scout / AHG units. If you'd be interested in that, too, please PM us.

 

TN Scout Troop

[VigilEagle04]

"+ We're pretty sure that the BSA's affiliation with AHG is not exclusive. We may be mistaken, but it's our understanding if the "Druids of America" want to set up the AOG (American Oak Girls) and worship the "oak tree God", and do fund raisers, so the troop could go to a Camporee at Stonehenge during the solstice, the BSA would go along."

 

I must say, I got a kick out of this being a Celtic spiritualist, or what many people call a Druid these days. Kudos to you for giving me a good laugh this morning, and an eerie coincidence that you used that for an example.

[The Blancmange]

And oh how they danced

The little children of Stonehenge

Beneath the haunted moon

For fear that daybreak might come too soon

 

And where are they now?

The little children of Stonehenge

And what would they say to us?

If we were here... tonight

 

[ScoutNut]

Not sure who/what the GCUSA is, or what they have to do with this question.

 

However the GSUSA is set up COMPLETELY differently from the BSA and should NOT be compared. GSUSA does not have Charter Organizations which "own" their Girl Scout Troops/Groups. All Troops/Groups are "owned" by the local Girl Scout Council. Most Girl Scout Troops/Groups are single grade/age. Others might be single Girl Scout level (Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior, Ambassador), with multiple grades/ages. The fewest in number are those with multiple grades, ages, and levels. As a result, unless the Girl Scout Troop is made up of just the students from a religious affiliated school, they tend to cover a broad range of religious beliefs.

 

Both AHG, and BSA, use Charter Organizations (many of which are religious institutions) which "own" their youth's units. This, in my opinion, is one of the main reasons for the connection between BSA, and AHG. BSA, always on the lookout to increase their numbers, sees the CO's which charter AHG units to be prime targets to convince to also charter BSA units.