Unreasonable to expect?

[Kudu]

sherminator505 writes:

 

OK, I'll bite. How does the bowline fit into that setup, exactly?

 

We tie the rope to the weight bag with a bowline, and to the lift-bag with two half-hitches.

 

Also required by our dive shop for Advanced Open Water certification (PADI, NAVI, or SDI) is the square knot and, um, the clove hitch. So Eagles beware.

 

See:

 

http://floridafundive.net/

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[jhankins]

Ah yes, it's the fault of Wood Badge that a boy forgets how to tie a knot if he doesn't use it all the time.

 

I grow weary of such implausible arguments.

 

Remember that teaching reinforces all knowledge. The more we teach, the different ways we apply our training to a problem, the more we rely on our buddies for new ways to teach the better we are at accomplishing our goals.

 

Knots are a visual animals. For those that aren't visual learners they can be difficult to grasp and hold onto the knowledge. Sometimes adding steps to the knots in a different order, or trying a different way of approaching the knot can help someone remember better. I have one boy that couldn't see how to tie a Bowline to save his life, but when we showed him how to tie it one-handed, bam --he's got it! Instead of beating him and his leader over the head for not being able to tie it since he went to 21st century Wood Badge, we took another approach that worked for the boy.

 

We've done knot relay races, knot boards as a service project to packs and for new boys, tarp camping, bringing pioneer poles to patrol meetings on request (or campouts), monkey bridge construction for Day Camp, and my favorite-- a scout-planned activity involving real-life obstacles presented by each patrol leader. It was an amazing experience to see the boys work out the plans for a camping round-robin event all directed towards skills through first class.

 

 

[Kudu]

jhankins writes:

 

Ah yes, it's the fault of Wood Badge that a boy forgets how to tie a knot if he doesn't use it all the time.

 

It is indeed the fault of the Wood Badge war on Scoutcraft that he doesn't use it all the time:

 

In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill.

 

jhankins writes:

 

I grow weary of such implausible arguments.

 

Not as weary as we get of Wood Badge "Storming" :-/

 

Yours at 300 feet:

 

Kudu

 

 

[sherminator505]

Thanks, Kudu.

[Jeffrey H]

The badge of rank on a Scout is not an indicator of his knowledge; its only an indicator that he completed the written requirements sometime in the past. The requirements he uses will stay with him and the others will be forgotten.

 

I personally believe that re-testing of the fundamentals is needed to advance beyond First Class. This should not be hard, but should function as refresher. First Class is supposed to reflect a Scouts basic proficiency in outdoor skills and those are skills that he should maintain and grow from.

 

Since the BSA Program does not allow for re-testing for rank advancement, its not our place to add or take away from the requirements, however I did like jblake47s idea that re-testing is done for Scouts in preparation for high-adventure outings.

 

[shortridge]

Knots can be tricky things. The only way to truly know them is through continual practice in the field. Unfortunately, much of the backpacking and camping that we do today with modern equipment doesn't use knots. There are adjustable guylines that come pre-attached to tents and tarps. The idea of creating campsite gadgets, to some people, goes against the idea of LNT.

 

One surefire way to learn them, however, is to do as Eagle92 says, and teach them. I spent five years at summer camp teaching Pioneering to Boy Scouts and basic knots to Cubs, but after the first summer, my hands could have been severed from my arms and they'd still remember how to tie a clove hitch.

[Eagle92]

As I said growing up the older scouts taught the younger ones. Once we mastered whatever skill to the satisfaction of the youth instructor, for basic T-2-1 skills, or adult instructor, if a MB for S-L-E, then we were expected to teach those skills to the Sc-T-2 group, and work with the 1-S-L group so that they could learn and practice. I found it kept the skills razor sharp.

 

Now as we all know, retesting for rank is not permitted, whatever our feeling are for it. BUT retesting those skills for HA activities is not only reasonable, but should be required. I know that for 12-18 months prior to my expedition in the Canadian wilderness, we trained, trained, and trained some more. Our skills were tested, tested, and tested again. And we even learnt a few new tricks form al the training. I had a good bit of canoeing expereince, and I still had to prove that I knew the skills to the leaders several times. And I am glad I did as things happen. That happened with me and my patrol, and I am glad we were prepared.

[HobcawChaos]

lol - now there's an "app for that"

http://animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

 

though i'd still recommend learning them. Might be hard to tie a new know in the dark with a dead cell phone battery and no reception bars ;-(

[Kudu]

Jeffrey H writes:

 

The badge of rank on a Scout is not an indicator of his knowledge; its only an indicator that he completed the written requirements sometime in the past.

 

For those with an interest in Scouting as a world movement (those who collect material for interesting discussions around the campfire), Jeffrey's statement is a perfect distillation of the difference between the BSA's YMCA-based program, and Baden-Powell's program in the rest of the world (based on "Current Proficiency").

 

B-P did not call the First Class Badge a "rank," it is a "Proficiency Badge." As the name implies, the badge indicates a Scout's CURRENT proficiency of Scoutcraft Skills, in this case at a First Class level (the level of mastery sufficient to complete the required overnight 14 mile solo backwoods Journey).

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm

 

A Scout must complete an unsupervised Journey of increasing difficulty for every Badge (in addition to unsupervised Patrol Journeys).

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm

 

Therefore, he must always be currently proficient in the badges he wears. If a Scout fails to demonstrate current proficiency for any badge on his uniform (Scouts wear all of their badges, except 2nd Class), then he must remove that badge.

 

That is why it is unreasonable for us to expect our Webelos III Eagle Scouts to know how to tie a clove hitch

 

"Rank" badges, on the other hand, refer to current LEADERSHIP position (if any). Leadership is freely-given public service by a Troop's most gifted leaders, not something required for a Proficiency Badge.

 

See "Badges of Rank:"

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/badges.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[sst3rd]

At the risk of sounding pithy, I'm with those who have their older experienced Scouts teach the younger inexperienced Scouts. They should know in advance if they are teaching or leading a knot themed contest or game. And could then take time before the event to refresh needed skills as necessary.

 

So, to answer the question, "unreasonable to expect?", no.

[desertrat77]

It's completely reasonable to expect older scouts to tie knots, etc.

 

I'm a firm believer that everyone--scouter and scout--should know and demonstrate basic scoutcraft skills--tentage, cooking, knots, hiking, map and compass, first aid, etc.

 

These are foundational skills for all.

 

If the scout is going to serve in a leadership position, and be a role model to the younger scouts, they've got to know their scoutcraft. It's a matter of personal credibility, and instilling the traditional skills and values of scouting in each individual scout.

 

It's all about leadership. Setting the bar high. Making the scout work for that badge so that when he finally sews it on, he's proud of the hard work that went in to earning it.

 

Looking back three decades, the merit badges I'm the proudest of are the ones that were the toughest to earn. The instructor made me sweat each requirement, and whether it was explain/show/demonstrate/write, I had to show a depth of knowledge, or action, that I wasn't expecting. And sometimes doubted I had what it took to complete it.

 

To the subject at hand, as a tenderfoot, I had to practice many, many hours to learn those basic knots. They didn't come naturally. And my patrol leader wasn't the nicest guy in the world, to say the least. He wasn't going to cut me any slack.

 

So it was a combination of a) pride in achievement and b) showing my PL that I wasn't the dummy he thought I was.

 

Learning these two lessons has helped me at every stage of my life afterwards. And I can still tie every knot that I learned as a scout.

 

Here's the kicker: all scouts are up for the challenge. It's often the adults that dumb down requirements, and have low expectations, in the mistaken belief that taking it easy is the secret to happiness and self worth. Actually, the opposite is true.

[desertrat77]

PS. Knot tying, or any other skill, is kept sharp by regularly programmed competitions during troop meetings and camporees.

 

And, as many have already noted, by teaching newer scouts.

 

So it begs the question: if senior scouts can't do basic scout tasks, what are their meetings and outdoor events like? There are probably other deficiencies in the troop as well.

[evmori]

You were wrong OGE! It isn't the adult leader's fault! It's all the fault of Woodbadge!

 

Practice makes perfect. We all forget stuff if we don't do it. Keeping skills like knots and lashings in the forefront will help.

[scoutingagain]

Just curious. How many who took calculus in college can solve even a simple problem two years after graduation?

 

I can still tie all the required scout knots, nearly 40 years after initially learning them. But don't ask me to solve even the most simple calculus problem. As a sailor I use the knots regularly. Calculus not so much.

 

SA

 

[John-in-KC]

"If you give them good program, they will come" ... H Roe Bartle

Scout Executive, Kansas City Area Council, 1928-1955

Mayor, Kansas City, 1955 - 1963

Founder and Chief Lone Bear in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say

 

Our job as adult leaders is to place a quality outdoor program where our youth members can function as the living, breathing mini-societies they are supposed to be. That means teaching/coaching/mentoring them to do:

- Research on activities

- Selecting activities

- Planning activities

- Training in preparation for activities

- DOING activities.

 

That involves teaching, coaching and mentoring them to work in small groups (eg PATROLS), and that involves teaching, coaching and mentoring them to work in groups of groups (the TROOP).

 

In a pretty decent (not necessarily ideal) world, much of this happens older to younger youth. Sometimes, the world model isn't decent, and adults may have to pick up more of the t/c/m burden.

 

Like jhankins, I grow weary of the constant complaint. A TOOL in our toolbox is just that: A tool. It's nothing until we take it and apply it. Have I used every tool I ever owned in exactly its designed state? No.