Unreasonable to expect?

[Exibar]

Would it be unreasonable to expect a star or a life scout to remember how to tie taught line hitches, clove hitches, or how to lash poles together?

How about ?

 

I completely understand that some things slip the mind of everyone, but what if one of your higher ranked scouts appeared as if he never learned how to lash poles together? or if he clearly does not know how to tie a clove hitch at all, even after seeing someone else tie one? What if there were a couple other items that you've observed that he couldn't do but should be able to do at his rank?

 

Of course we'd all give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that it's just something that he "forgot" and needs a bit more of a refresher on. Would you start to question his other achievements too?

 

 

thanks all!

Mike B

[ScoutNut]

Once they have achieved a rank it is to late to un-ring that bell.

 

Make sure the Scouts in the Troop have plenty of practice using their skills. Knots are very easy to lose if you do not use them - often. Have the older Scouts teach the skills they have learned (or should have learned) to younger Scouts. Teaching others is a great way to keep skills fresh.

 

 

[evmori]

If those knots and hitches are used regularly by the Scout, no it's not unreasonable. Scouts do tend to forget things they don't do regularly.

[Eagle92]

That's why I'm an advocate of having the older scouts teach the younger ones.

[OldGreyEagle]

It used to be a popular refrain that if a scout doesnt know something, then its the fault of the adult leadership. Got to the point where it may have been overdone.

 

However, if a scout who is Life can't tie required knots or do required lashings, the first thing to be inspected is the Troop program. Are opportunities available to use these skills, are the older scouts indeed teaching the skills.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I agree with the comment about having the older boys teach the younger ones. I have found that the ultimate test of one's understanding and 'knowledge' of something...is to try to teach it.

The expectation that they should know these things is just fine...as long as that expectation is tempered by an appreciation for the reality that we all tend to forget things we don't use very often. At least that's the way it worked for me and differential equations.

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

It used to be a popular refrain that if a scout doesn't know something, then its the fault of the adult leadership.

 

I agree with OGE on that one except, of course, that it is the fault of adult leadership TRAINING!

 

I once staffed a monkey bridge at a Camporee. It was a thing of beauty, the creation of a master rock-climber. It spanned a deep creek-bed and violated the Guide to Safe Scouting height rules by at least two-fold, so of course hundreds of Scouts wanted to climb it!

 

I noticed that three Eagle Scouts in the first round-robin group had no idea how to tie a clove hitch. In fact they joked that they had never heard of one!

 

"You know, the x-knot!" I said.

 

Blank looks.

 

So throughout the day I asked for Eagle Scouts to raise their hands and come to the head of the line. Then I challenged them to tie a clove hitch or the x-knot. If I remember correctly, about 20% of the Eagle Scouts could tie one.

 

It would be easy enough to confirm that 20% figure: Simply construct a pioneering project from the days when Scouting was popular. If it violates the Guide to Safe Scouting, the boys will come running.

 

Tell them Eagle Scouts go first, and then ask each Eagle to tie a clove hitch to cross the bridge or climb the tower.

 

We should understand that ignorance of Scoutcraft is by design.

 

Leadership Development has been at war with Scoutcraft since 1965.

 

See "1965":

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

That is why Patrol Leader Training was discontinued in 1972, the year that "Leadership Development" was introduced as a so-called "Method of Scouting."

 

See "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol":

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

It is why Wood Badge trained Den Leaders flock to health and safety committees, with the goal of using the Guide to Safe Scouting to outlaw (in the BSA's centennial year), the Patrol Outings that Wood Badge and Patrol Leader Training taught before leadership formula Wood Badge was invented.

 

It is the meaning of "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle!"

 

It is the meaning of the fake Baden-Powell quote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose!"

 

That "Purpose" is defined in the Congressional Charter:

 

Sec. 30902. Purposes

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Even though our Congressional Charter lists Scoutcraft (using the methods of 1916, not EDGE) as one of the three aims of the BSA, Scoutcraft was pushed out of Wood Badge so that we could dumb it down to the Cub Scout level.

 

The resulting "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills" is a check-it-off-a-requirements-list course, not a Scoutcraft Leadership course as the name implies.

 

So because of our training, what matters to trained adults is the fakable "meaning" stuff like "Leadership and Character."

 

Leadership? Office manager team-building exercises.

 

Character? We can not obey the law and honor the terms of our Congressional Charter because Scoutcraft is, um, old-fashioned. How about soccer instead?

 

The prohibition on "retesting" is part of this war on Scoutcraft. Baden-Powell required his King's Scouts to be retested on all of their qualifying badges every 12-18 months:

 

432 (2): He must be repassed in all his qualifying badges once between twelve and eighteen months from the date of his being awarded the badge, except in the case of those badges which are marked with an asterisk, i.e., Ambulance Man, Interpreter, Pathfinder, and Signaller, which must be repassed annually in accordance with Rule 436. The re-examination is normally carried out by an independent examiner, but in the case of those badges in italics the re-examination may be made by the S.M. or any other warranted Scouter. He must cease to wear the King's Scout badge should he fail in any of them.

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm

 

Why can't Eagle Scouts tie a clove hitch? Because "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle." That's why.

 

You know, all that fake "Purpose" of Scouting stuff.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[Jeffrey H]

Practice makes perfect. Its reasonable to expect a Star or Life Scout to forget how to do some lashings or some knots if he never has the need to use those periodically. The knots and lashings that he learned to do on his way to First Class are quickly forgotten if he only learned to do them only once in order to meet a trail to first class requirement. However, it is reasonable to expect a Star or Life Scout to maintain a knowledge of basic fundamental knots that are used frequently on campouts.

 

We have some Star and Life Scouts in our Troop that have trouble starting campfires. Why? In the area that I live in, burn bans are a frequent occurrence and we have to depend on our campstoves to prepare meals. They have good outdoor skills overall, but building a campfire is not one of their strengths because they rarely get to practice it.

 

[Stosh]

Once they have earned rank and are supposed to know this stuff, you can't take away the rank.

 

However, for high adventure in my troop the qualification for going relies on how functionally FC the boy is. Just because he has FC on his shirt doesn't mean he automatically goes on the trip. He doesn't get POR just because he wears the patch, and he doesn't automatically go to BWCA just because he's collected up the FC, and Swimming, First Aid and Canoeing MB's. He has to show proficiency in those areas before he is qualified to go. While being able to tie a double half-hitch may not be a life saving skill to maintain, proficiency in First Aid may make all the difference in the world.

 

The reason these skills are taught is so that the boy can use them, not forget them. Do I retest? Yep. Do I take away rank? Nope. Do some of my boys miss out on certain outings? Yep.

 

Stosh

[SMT224]

As others have said, practice, practice, practice!

 

We've found working it into games leads to the most enthusiasm, especially with an edible reward!! Giving the Scouts a pile of rope with the instructions to "practice knots" doesn't ever seem to accomplish much - they need some kind of end point motivation that gives them a reason to tie the knot.

 

At one point we tried a weekly "exit knot" - we worked on one knot during the meeting, then each Scout had to tie that knot to exit the meeting and go home! PLC decided it caused too much stress and canceled it!

 

A number of years ago, we were going to a windy beach area for camping. Since we would be setting up our tents in the sand, we made "dead men" to bury in the sand and then attach our tent tie-downs to. We reviewed the two-half-hitch knot and the taught-line knot several times and had everyone practice. After about 10 minutes most were messing around and talking. When asked, they all said they had it and knew the knots.

 

Well, we got to the site at about 10:30 at night. It was windy and quite cool. And of course, dark. We first had to lay out the tents so we knew where to bury the dead men, as one went between two tents. Once we got them buried, the Scouts simply needed to tie their tents to the dead men rope loops sticking out of the sand and then set them up.

 

As I walked around monitoring progress, I discovered that well over half of the Scouts not only could not tie either the two-half-hitches or the taught-line, but they had never heard of these knots in their entire life! In this "battle moment", a number of Scouts seemed to shut down and had no idea what the tent ropes might be for or how to tie any knot at all. Myself, several Scouts who kept their heads, and other adult leaders went around and helped everyone tie the necessary knots and get set up. I finally hit the sack at 1:00 am!

 

At our debriefing after this camping trip, we had a good discussion about what it is to tie a knot once or twice at a Troop meeting, and what it is to really know how to tie a knot. I think those who choked on the camping trip came to a much better understanding of what it means to really be able to tie a knot.

 

[sherminator505]

It is not unreasonable at all. They should be teaching them to the younger Scouts.

[perdidochas]

Knots are easy to forget if you don't use them regularly. The clove hitch I find to be one of the hardest knots to remember. Part of the reason is that I rarely use it.

[packsaddle]

SMT224, that's a great example. My students get tired of hearing me say to them that what they learn in class gives them a false sense of confidence...that they won't know how well they learned the stuff until they get out and DO it for real. I lead them to water...sometimes they drink.

[Kudu]

packsaddle writes:

 

I lead them to water

 

Our Scouts were surprised to learn that they were required to tie two half-hitches and a bowline 30 feet below the surface to move a bag of bricks for their Advanced Open Water certification :-/

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[sherminator505]

OK, I'll bite. How does the bowline fit into that setup, exactly?